The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

Statement by the Llywydd

Welcome to this Plenary session. Before we begin, I want to set out a few points. This meeting will be held in hybrid format, with some Members in the Senedd Chamber and others joining by video-conference. All Members participating in proceedings of the Senedd, wherever they may be, will be treated equally. A Plenary meeting held using video-conference, in accordance with the Standing Orders of the Welsh Parliament, constitutes Senedd proceedings for the purposes of the Government of Wales Act 2006. Some of the provisions of Standing Order 34 will apply for today's Plenary meeting, and these are set out on the agenda.

1. Questions to the First Minister

The first item is questions to the First Minister, and the first question today is from Samuel Kurtz.

Healthcare in Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire

Samuel Kurtz MS: 1. What action is the Welsh Government taking to enhance healthcare provision in Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire? OQ58240

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for that question, Llywydd. Amongst the actions taken by the Welsh Government is reform of the dental contract to enhance access to NHS care. Despite claims to the contrary, over 90 per cent of NHS-funded dentistry in the Member's constituency will now be provided by practices that have chosen to adopt the new contract.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Thank you, First Minister. It's actually GP surgeries that I'm going to be going in on today rather than dentistry. Yesterday evening, I had the pleasure of meeting the patient participation group of the Argyle Medical Group surgery—a collection of patients who are there to influence and advise both the staff and the wider patient community on the challenges and opportunities facing the surgery. As I've mentioned in this Siambr before, the surgery serves over 22,000 patients while employing only six registered GPs, but each one of those staff members goes above and beyond in their care for their patients. Whilst recruitment is always a welcome prospect, with possible positive news on the horizon on that front, Argyle and other rural GP surgeries will attest to the difficulties in recruiting medical practitioners to rural surgeries.Therefore, can the First Minister outline what he and his Government are doing to support rural surgeries in the recruitment and retention of GPs and other healthcare professionals, such as physiotherapists, nurse practitioners and pharmacists? And in recruiting those healthcare professionals, what work is the Welsh Government doing to educate patients that they don't always have to be seen by a GP to get fast and effective treatment? Diolch.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, can I thank Sam Kurtz? I so much agree with the points he made at the end of that question. It's been a theme for me, ever since I was the health Minister, that the future of primary care in Wales has to be a team of professionals, often operating under the supervision of the GP, the person with the highest level of qualifications in that team, but where all those members, the pharmacists and others that he mentioned, are perfectly clinically capable of providing services direct to the patients, and sometimes more quickly and sometimes even more effectively than the generalist, the GP, will be able to do. So, I absolutely congratulate the GPs in the surgery that Sam Kurtz has mentioned. I congratulate them on having that patient participation group. We've debated that on the floor of the Senedd a number of times, wondering whether, on the model of our school councils, we ought to have an expectation that all GP practices should have a forum where they learn directly from the views and experiences of their patients. I think the last time we visited this the conclusion was that it works well where you've got GPs who are keen on the idea, and it's hard to generalise into places where maybe there's less enthusiasm for it. But, where it works, I think it brings a really powerful perspective to people who provide services by learning directly from those who are receiving them.
As to the question about investment in future workforce, as Members here will know, we've had a very good experience in the last couple of years in recruiting GPs into training practices here in Wales. Those numbers have exceeded the threshold that we set last year and the year before, and we are doing very well to include in those training practices additional practices in rural parts of Wales. I feel confident that the general principle there is one that stands up to examination—that if you go and train somewhere, and you spend time there, it increases the chances that that is where you will want to work permanently. And it's why, of course, we are committed to a new medical school in north Wales, which will result in not simply GPs, but that wider range of health professionals being trained directly here in Wales and able to go on doing the good work that Sam Kurtz referred to this afternoon.

Housing Development in Cardiff

Rhys ab Owen AS: 2. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to ensure that the necessary infrastructure is in place to meet housing development needs in Cardiff? OQ58213

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, Cardiff Council is responsible for these issues. The authority must operate within the framework noted in 'Planning Policy Wales', as has been previously reported to this Senedd.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Thank you very much, First Minister. I was very pleased to read the report on the creation of a metro between Llantrisant and Cardiff, and I agree entirely with you, and with the Counsel General, about the importance of that scheme. The difficulty of course is that it's going to take 10 years to build, and, as you know, thousands of people have moved to new homes in the north of the city, with the driveways of these homes with several cars in them. The public transport provision isn't sufficient in that part of the city. Another concern that has been raised recently by residents in north Cardiff is the new sewage pumping station in historic Hailey park. How can we ensure that vital provisions are in place before constructing new major developments, First Minister? Thank you.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, thank you to Rhys ab Owen for that supplementary question. I must be careful in keeping that separation between what I do as the Member for Cardiff West and my ministerial responsibilities here in Wales. Just to be clear, neither myself nor the Counsel General will participate in any decision on the possibility of redesigning the rail line from Cardiff West to the Pontypridd constituency. Generally speaking, there is a lot of work ongoing in Plasdŵr, in terms of bus provision and also in planning for those who want to cycle from their homes to work. And I know that Cardiff Council has plans in place, and they are consulting at the moment in Llandaf, in order to extend the system that we already have, and to take that out to Plasdŵr, to help people to come in to the city in that way. The city of Cardiff, Llywydd, is redesigning their LDP, and, as they do that, they will, as I said in my original response, have to work within the statutory process that we now have here in Wales. That's what the plan that we put out to local authorities says.

Mark Drakeford AC: It's in the development plan's manual. Infrastructure plans must be prepared that clearly set out what infrastructure is required, the broad cost and timing, as well as funding sources. Llywydd, Cardiff Council did submit a set of master plans, alongside its LDP, back in 2016. But the provision of an infrastructure plan, as part of its replacement LDP, will now be a statutory requirement, and that will help at least to respond to the points that Rhys ab Owen has raised this afternoon.

Joel James MS: First Minister, on 8 January 2019, Huw Irranca-Davies asked you about what this Government was doing to ensure that the transport infrastructure is definitely in place to enable the grand plans for new housing in Cardiff and south Wales, to help create, in his words, hundreds and hundreds of happy home owners, not grumpy, gridlocked constituents. As you may recall, you responded that the Welsh Government had legislated to create the conditions in which local authorities can come together to create strategic development plans, and that you were pleased to see, last year, the Cardiff capital deal authorities coming together to develop such a plan for a wider area, and that you looked forward to seeing how, in 2019, that intention turned into practical action. Well, three years later, we can clearly see that the legislation that this Government created has helped Cardiff turn into a city with many, many grumpy, gridlocked constituents, and it's clearly not working. The infrastructure situation in and around Creigiau and Radyr is dreadful at best, and, as you will be well aware, it is exacerbated by the fact that the new housing developments do not have sufficient amenities, meaning that residents have to drive to access schools, health facilities, shops and such, which further aggravates the situation. In addition, bus services are awful. They are removing more and more services in the area—

You're going to need to come to a question, please, Joel James.

Joel James MS: Say that again, sorry. This isn't—[Inaudible.]

You're going to need to come to a question.

Joel James MS: No worries. First Minister, why is it this Government cannot create legislation that ensures sufficient amenities, public transport and infrastructure are put into place before house building is allowed? Thank you.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I thank the Member for the interest he too takes in the Cardiff West constituency. I give him the assurance that I will report his views to the elected Member and that they'll be taken with the seriousness that they merit, including all the work that goes on to ensure that there are the amenities there that need to be provided for a population of the sort that has chosen to go and live in the Plasdŵr development. Far from being 'grumpy' citizens of Cardiff, as the Member suggests, these are people spending many thousands of pounds voluntarily to take up the opportunity that's been created for them.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I just wanted to focus on the planning infrastructure around housing developments. I was very disappointed to learn that Cardiff Council has given planning approval for 700 homes on the old Brains site, just south of Cardiff Central station—a 29-storey development—and the only contribution to social housing is £600,000 for homes to be built elsewhere. Well, that equates to about five homes. So, I just wondered what plans the Welsh Government might have to strengthen the obligation to house not just the people who can afford to buy houses, but those who are waiting on the housing waiting list.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, the decision to go ahead with housing on the old Brains site is, of course, a welcome one, because it means that housing is happening on a brownfield site and in the inner city part of Cardiff, where we know demand for housing is significant. But I do agree with what Jenny Rathbone has said: that it is for local authorities to make the maximum use they can of the arrangements that are in place there for them to ensure that developers make a significant contribution to the future housing needs not simply of people who will be able to afford to buy properties on that site, but to the general effort that needs to be made to increase the supply of affordable social housing of a good standard here in Wales. I commend Cardiff city council for everything they are doing to build council housing in the city for the first time in a very long time, but other opportunities also need to be seized.

Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

Questions now from party leaders. The leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. First Minister, the country today is gridlocked because of the rail strikes, the biggest strikes since the 1980s. Do you support the strikes, First Minister?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, there are no strikes in Wales. There is no dispute between Transport for Wales and the trade union. Where I am responsible for these things, workers are not on strike, because of the way in which the Welsh Government acts on a social partnership basis to bring people round the table together to make sure that conversations take place and solutions are reached. How very different from the entirely absent UK Government, who abandon their responsibilities and mean that thousands of people are unable to travel due to the dereliction of duty that is so apparent in their approach to industrial relations.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Nothing like winding up the payroll vote to the unions is there when your own are banging their desks? I didn't hear them banging their desks when they were supposed to be standing up for their constituents who were stuck on trains that couldn't provide a service from Transport for Wales. And when you go to Cardiff Central station today, or the rail network in north Wales or mid Wales, there are no trains running, First Minister. I do note that you didn't say that you supported the strikes, which is to be welcomed, First Minister, but surely, in an era when we need the public transport system to come back to life after COVID, we need to move away from the 1950s working practices and move into the 2020s—practices that see people not sharing vans to get to the same site to work, practices that rule on not using drones for health and safety, or the ability to use apps on phones to send messages to workers who are in vulnerable locations. Surely you'll agree with me on that, First Minister—that working practices do need updating in our railways, whether that's in Wales, England, Scotland or Northern Ireland, so that we have a safe and reliable rail network.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, let me explain to the leader of the opposition why trains aren't running in Wales: it's because his Government has created a dispute with Network Rail, and Network Rail have removed some of the staff, who could have been available to make trains run in Wales, in order to keep trains running in England. I wonder if he supports that measure, which was a decision of his Government, to deny people in Wales the opportunity to travel—where there is no dispute—by removing those workers to look after what clearly is for them a higher priority than Welsh citizens will ever be.
The trade unions—Llywydd, of course the trade unions want to negotiate and want to negotiate on safe working practices for the future, but the safe working practices. When you look at what Network Rail is currently proposing, I wouldn't want to be travelling on a train with a driver that has just worked for 16 hours in a row. I wouldn't want to be on a train where I couldn't be confident that the safety arrangements and signalling boxes are what they need to be.
Llywydd, any dispute in the end is only ever settled by negotiation. What I want to see is the UK Government using the power that it has, the convening power that it has, the muscle of the funding arrangements that it has, to get people around the table and to make sure that those talks resume and head towards an agreed conclusion. It is the absence of the UK Government and their refusal to exercise those responsibilities that is responsible for the issues that people face while trying to travel today.

Andrew RT Davies AC: First Minister, you clearly haven't been keeping up to date with what the general secretary of the RMT has said, where he's said on record that he would not negotiate with a Conservative Government, which does seem odd considering they've got a mandate to govern—[Interruption.] I appreciate the payroll vote are getting quite agitated, and I'm sure that the constituency Labour parties will get the donations they deserve—[Interruption.]

Okay, okay, okay. We're clearly—. There are a lot of us back in the Chamber—only two people on Zoom today—and I'm hearing the effect of it around me. [Laughter.] But, I do also need to hear the leader of the opposition, so if we can carry on with the question.

Andrew RT Davies AC: There are nurses, there are students looking to do their exams, there are businesses who cannot get employees into their place of work, who are suffering because of this strike action. So, we might disagree on various points, First Minister, but do you agree with me on this salient point: that when strike action is called—and I respect the right to call strike action, because that's a fundamental part of democracy—that there should be minimum levels of service guaranteed on key transport infrastructure? Do you believe that is a critical part of what a modern transport system requires in the twenty-first century, rather than 1950s working practices, which you seem so able to defend?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, this strike has been called against the extraordinary levels of consent that are required by Tory party legislation. For unions to be able to mount a strike today, they had to move through a series of hurdles that his Government has placed in their path. Now he wants to place further hurdles in the path of people. That's not part of the arrangements that his Government has put on the statute book. Let him speak to his Government. The rules that the trade unions are operating under are your rules. Now you want to change the rulebook, of course.
But, I do say this to the leader of the opposition: I have tried in my answers this afternoon to emphasise the fact that consensus is the only way in which disputes are ever resolved. He would be better adding his voice on that side of the argument, rather than echoing the deliberately provocative language that this Government in Westminster uses. It wants a fight with the unions, it provokes a fight with the unions, and that is in nobody's interest at all.

Leader of Plaid Cymru, Adam Price.

Adam Price AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I have to say, in the week where thousands of flights have been cancelled and the railway network has ground to a halt and petrol prices have gone up yet again, the Tories deciding to go on transport in First Minister's questions and in their opposition motion this week is a very courageous choice. They say the transport network in Wales is not fit for purpose. What they omit to say is that it's failing because of their Westminster Government, and the rail strike is a perfect example of that: services are able to run from Treherbert, Aberdare and Merthyr Tydfil to Radyr, where they stop, because that's the bit of the railway infrastructure that we control ourselves here in Wales, where there is no dispute, because we in Wales believe that treating workers with decency is part and parcel of providing a decent public service. Isn't that yet another argument—? And, what you've shared just now, First Minister, about Network Rail prioritising England over Wales yet again, isn't that an argument yet again for devolving powers fully over rail to Wales?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, the leader of Plaid Cymru is absolutely right that the reasons that we do not have—[Interruption.] I understand that denial is the first refuge of the Welsh Conservative Party, and they're busy at it this afternoon. The reason why there are no trains south of Radyr is because of decisions being made by non-devolved bodies. The reasons why there are no trains at all in north Wales is for the same reason. It is time that the UK Government and Network Rail treated Wales with the respect that we deserve, and recognisedthat we don't have a dispute going on here in Wales, and yet, because of their actions, trains that could be running today are not running.
The leader of Plaid Cymru reminded us of Grant Shapps. There's a name—I see some Members here recognise it. But it is a remarkable triple whammy, isn't it, to have brought the railways to a standstill, to have brought the airports to a standstill, and, finally, after about eight weeks, I think, to have woken up to the fact that the 5p that was taken off the price of petrol hadn't been passed on to people in that part of the transport sector as well. It is a remarkable record of failure, and I'm afraid that it's people not just in Wales, but across the United Kingdom who are paying the cost of that failure today.

Adam Price AC: In relation to the devolution of railways, I think it is important that we have a clear position on that here in Wales, but also from the UK Labour Party as well, that have been at best ambiguous, and, in fact, supported an integrated UK railway at the last election.
Now, in Westminster's rail crisis, there seems to be a competition between politicians to see who can be the most invisible. Is it Grant Shapps refusing to sit down with the rail unions, or is it Keir Starmer banning his shadow Cabinet from the picket lines and berating them for speaking out in favour? I was at an RMT picket line this morning—proud to be there expressing my solidarity with workers fighting for jobs and decent pay and conditions. At a time when trade unions and workers are being demonised, being turned into scapegoats, being vilified to distract attention from Boris Johnson's many failures, isn't it even more important that we show them our support? So, can you confirm that Mr Starmer's prohibition does not apply to your Cabinet members, and will you yourself, First Minister, visit a picket line as a symbol of your solidarity and support?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, no inhibition exists on members of my group demonstrating their support for the trade union movement. Keir Starmer is in a very different position. He knows perfectly well that if he were to sanction that, the story would never, ever be, would it, about support for the trade union movement; it would be the Tories succeeding in their wish to portray this as somehow an example of the country returning to days that have been left far behind. So, in our context, where we have a partnership approach with our trade unions, where we don't have a dispute with our trade unions, of course members of the Labour Party here in Wales are able to demonstrate their support for our trade union colleagues, but we operate in a different context and we come to different conclusions for very good reasons.

Adam Price AC: Faced with the mounting cost-of-living crisis and a stagnating economy, the return of 1970s-style stagflation, we have a Westminster Government that thinks the appropriate response to this crisis is to cut workers' wages even further—a return to the dogma of the 1930s. It's no wonder that teachers and nurses are considering strike action. It's perhaps a sign of the times that even barristers have voted for strike action, which should ring alarm bells even with this cloth-eared Government. I think it was a strike by theParisian order of barristers, I seem to remember, that sparked the French revolution. If England is to have its summer of discontent, can we contrast that here in Wales, within those areas that we control, with a summer of solidarity, and heed, for example, the call from the health unions for a pay deal that, at a minimum, keeps pace with soaring inflation?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, let me agree with the first part of what the leader of Plaid Cymru said, because in the dispute we see in the rail industry and the ballots we see for strike action in other parts of the public services, we are reaping the whirlwind of 10 years of austerity. I think of the time and time again that Members of the Conservative benches here supported and defended that policy—that policy, which has kept wages down, which has refused to give people pay increases, and which means that, in every street here in Wales, we have families who are worse off today than when his party came into power in 2010. And when you add in rampant inflation and a Chancellor that's lost control of the economy, then there's no doubt at all that these actions are being stimulated by that compound economic failure.
The position in Wales, in relation to pay in the public sector, however, is part of the problem created by the Conservative Government. We get a fixed sum of money each year. If we are to pay some workers more than we are funded to pay them, there is nowhere for us to go. We cannot raise money ourselves to add to that. We cannot raise money ourselves—[Interruption.]
I'm very interested indeed. Llywydd, people listening will not have heard the leader of the opposition advocate putting up the taxes of people here in Wales in order to pay for people's wages because that is what he just did. He said to me that we should put up taxes in order to pay for wage increases. [Interruption.]

No, no. No point of order. I also heard you say it. [Interruption.] No, no. Let's carry on and, at some point soon, we'll come to the River Wysgand that will calm everybody down. I can't remember what Wysg—.
The First Minister's finished or—?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, as I have explained, for us to put up the wages of people, as we would like to, as they deserve, we would have to take that money from some other part of the Welsh Government budget, and Members here will know just how stretched that budget is. It's worth £600 million less today than it was on the day that the Chancellor declared it back in November. The answer is that the UK Government has to come to that table, has to be prepared to fund those settlements properly, and then people who work in our public services will be able to be paid in the way that they deserve and we would wish to see.

Now we come to the question on the River Usk.

Question 3, Peter Fox.

Water Quality in the River Usk Catchment Area

Peter Fox AS: 3. What action is the Welsh Government taking to improve water quality in the River Usk catchment area? OQ58199

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Peter Fox for that question. Water quality in the Usk faces multiple risks ranging from climate change and industrial and agricultural pollution, to faulty septic tanks and wastewater discharges. Welsh Government provides direct investment and sets the regulatory framework, but effective improvement will depend on co-operation across a range of different organisations and individuals.

Peter Fox AS: Thank you, First Minister, for your response, and water quality is a significant issue for communities right across the country and Members in this Chamber. Only last week we were debating the Climate Change, Environment, and Infrastructure Committee's findings on the subject, and their report made for sobering reading. Tomorrow, we'll be debating the same committee's report on Natural Resources Wales, which raises questions about their progress on measures to monitor and manage water pollution. Recently, in Usk, hundreds of local residents marched in protest and made it clear that they've had enough of seeing the River Usk polluted as it currently is, and they demand action.
I acknowledge and welcome that steps are being taken by Welsh Water in particular to reduce the impact of overflows on the Usk and surrounding catchment area. The upcoming work on the Usk pumping station, as well as the planned installation of additional phosphorus strippers, are a step in the right direction, but regulation is fundamental to lasting change. First Minister, do you have confidence that the regulators have the capacity and are taking sufficient action to tackle these issues on the Usk, and, indeed, all Welsh river catchments? First Minister, what message can you give to reassure communities in the Usk catchment that the Government is on top of this situation?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Peter Fox for his recognition of the actions that are being taken by Dŵr Cymru on the Usk in response to the concerns that have been expressed by local residents. As Peter Fox will know, it's a three-phase programme of work, with £10 million to be invested. Phase 1, the work at the Usk sewer pumping station, is already under way, and due to be completed by the end of November, then with further works to continue over the next two years.
In terms of regulation, Llywydd, in preparing for today's questions, and the question that comes later on the order paper from Laura Anne Jones, I discovered—because this is not always my main source of expertise—that drainage and wastewater planning is the only area without a statutory status in the water sector. So, when it comes to the quinquennial reviews carried out by Ofwat—the price review—the risk is that drainage and wastewater planning doesn't receive the same level of priority as other aspects that do have a statutory obligation behind them. The Welsh Government has secured powers through the UK Government's Environment Act 2021 to bring regulations in front of the Senedd to put those drainage and wastewater management plans on a statutory basis here in Wales. We're currently piloting those management plans on a non-statutory basis. We'll learn as a result of doing it—this is the way that industry have asked us to proceed—and then we plan to introduce the regulations in front of the Senedd next year, in 2023. That will mean that those plans will be on a statutory basis here in Wales in time for the next Ofwat price review in 2024, which means that they will have to be taken equally seriously with the other obligations that Ofwat weighs up when it's coming to its conclusions.
I hope that that will provide some assurance to residents in the Member's constituency that, as well as the investment that is being put in place, the regulatory framework is also being strengthened here in Wales in order to tackle what I entirely agree with Peter Fox is a very serious issue that requires action across a range of organisations and individuals.

Question 4, Altaf Hussain.

Let—. Ah, there you go.

Altaf Hussain AS: Thank you, Presiding Officer. Yes, I can speak now.

School Education

Altaf Hussain AS: 4. What action is the Welsh Government taking to deliver first-class school education in Wales? OQ58197

Mark Drakeford AC: Can I thank Altaf Hussain for that question? From September this year, this Senedd’s new curriculum will be a reality in 95 per cent of schools and nursery settings in Wales. The new curriculum represents a radical shift in delivering that first-class education that enables our learners to become informed citizens of Wales and the world.

Altaf Hussain AS: Thank you, First Minister. First Minister, the pandemic has shone a harsh light on inequalities in Wales, and much of this was seen through the delivery of our education system while parents struggled to be both parent and teacher for their children, and also when the welfare of children became a concern during a prolonged absence from the classroom. The crisis now with the cost of living is forcing parents to meet another challenge, and one where we might see an increase in school absences as parents attempt to find cheaper holidays during school time. What discussions has he had with colleagues in Government and across our school system to assess the impact of the cost-of-living crisis on school attendance? Thank you.

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for that question. I commend to him the recent lecture given by the Minister for education to the Bevan Foundation, in which he grappled with exactly the sorts of issues that Dr Hussain has raised with us this afternoon. These are complex matters. I have no wish whatsoever, Llywydd, to penalise any families who are struggling with the impact of the cost-of-living crisis and face additional difficulties in making sure their children are present—as those children need to be, as children have a right to an education in Wales—in the classroom. I don't think that my tolerance would extend all the way to families who choose to take their children out of school in order to go on holiday. There is a different and a better solution to that, and that is to reform the school year. That is another measure that my colleague Jeremy Miles is working on at the moment, with our partners in the school and educational fields. By reforming the school year, we would be able to take away that perverse incentive, or impact on it, that exists for parents to do exactly as Altaf Hussain has suggested. That's not the answer to making sure that children get the education that they need and deserve in Wales.

Vikki Howells AC: First Minister, Rhigos Primary School in my constituency is celebrating after recently being awarded the title of best breakfast club in Wales. We've been providing free breakfasts for children in Wales for just under 20 years now, improving not just their health but also their concentration levels. And of course, the benefits of that universal access to good nutrition is set to be significantly expanded with the roll-out of free school meals to all primary-aged children in Wales. First Minister, will you send a message of congratulations to Mrs Mundy and her team at Rhigosprimary for receiving this impressive accolade? And what best practice do you think might be taken from Rhigos and shared so that all breakfast clubs can offer our pupils a first-class addition to their school education?

Mark Drakeford AC: I do thank Vikki Howells for that, and absolutely want to congratulate Rhigos Primary School and the team of people who have achieved that very significant award. I'm afraid, Llywydd, I have been around long enough vividly to remember a visit to a school in Rhondda Cynon Taf, the local authority represented here, with others, by Vikki Howells. It was a visit carried out by the then First Minister, Rhodri Morgan, and he met a formidable headteacher, who said to him that if there was one thing that she would like to see the Welsh Government do, it would be to take action to prevent children in her school turning up every morning too hungry to learn. That was a very sobering moment, Llywydd. From that one visit, the whole programme that we've had now right across Wales for, as Vikki Howells said, almost the whole of devolution to provide a free breakfast in primary schools, that's where that idea came from. And it does, as Vikki Howells has said, make sure that children who come to the classroom in Wales are ready to learn and not constantly preoccupied by the fact that they haven't eaten since they were last in school.
That will be enhanced even further by our programme of free dinners, free school meals—universal free school meals—a commitment embedded in our co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru, and where a major step forward was taken yesterday with the announcement of the move forward in September of this year. I am hugely encouraged by the fact that so many schools and so many local authorities in Wales are able to join the roll-out of universal free school meals so early in the programme, and others with very active plans to extend that offer, not just to reception-age pupils, but to year 1 and year 2 students as well. It's an idea that's been widely welcomed, for all the reasons that Vikki Howells said, and we're off to a very good start with our programme here in Wales.

The Wye and Usk Rivers

Laura Anne Jones AC: 5. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to upgrade the sewer system in the Wye and Usk river catchment areas? OQ58216

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Laura Anne Jones for that question, Llywydd. The privatisation of the water industry by previous Conservative Governments transferred responsibility for the sewer system to water companies. Some sewer systems, such as septic tanks, remain the responsibility of private individuals.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Thank you, First Minister. It's good to see that a local MS, Peter Fox, also put a question in regarding rivers today, just reinforcing how important this issue is to our local community. First Minister, last weekend, I attended the march outlined by Peter Fox to save our river, alongside local campaigner Angela, local councillors, residents, anglers, dogs, my own family and many local children, all of whom enjoy our river, just showing the strength of feeling that there is on this issue. First Minister, I've grown up next to—playing in and fishing in—the River Usk, and now I take my children down to the river and we see more pollution, fewer fish and large amounts of green algae growing. It's desperately sad to see its rapid decline.
It was a very welcome announcement by Welsh Water, as you've outlined already, of £10 million funding that will be invested in the Usk to improve the water treatment works, and in the combined storm overflow—an investment that desperately was needed for a variety of reasons: to save biodiversity, wildlife and decreasing fish numbers. But, First Minister, you've, in part, answered my question already earlier on the river management and our regulatory framework that's in place, and, of course, I welcome, very much so, as the river management is in your jurisdiction, that you've taken this on board and listened to the UK Government and what they're doing under the new environment Bill, and replicating some of these things, and you'll now be piloting on a non-statutory basis, as you've outlined, hoping that that becomes statutory in 2024. We would welcome that. We need to get a grip on this issue before our rivers die.
First Minister, I'm sure you'll agree with me that we need to get a grip also on the sewage system. We've seen significant investment—

You do need to come to your question now. You've outlined what was previously asked and answered; if you can ask your question, please.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Diolch, Presiding Officer. Do you agree with me that we need to see significant investment from this Welsh Government at some point to replace or renew the antiquated sewage system in Wales, working with those that you outlined in your previous answer, so that it's fit for purpose for future generations?

Mark Drakeford AC: I agree with the Member about the need for very significant investment, but the investment comes from water companies. They are responsible, not the Welsh Government. There is money that the Welsh Government invests, and we have £40 million already being spent in this field over the next three years, but the responsibility does not lie with the Welsh Government. The responsibility lies with the water companies, and we are very lucky in Wales to have a not-for-profit water company so that millions and millions of pounds are not siphoned off from bill payers into the profits. This is the irony, Llywydd, isn't it? We have a publicly owned water industry in the United Kingdom; it's just that it's owned by the French Government and the German Government, not by our own Government, where those profits would be reinvested, as they are in Wales, and we're fortunate to be in that position.
I hope that the next quinquennial review will see the sort of step change in investment in dealing with the issues. I do agree with the Member, and I agree with Peter Fox, that these are serious matters and we deserve to have a serious debate about it in Wales. And that does mean that we have to be prepared to face some challenging conversations. I will chair a summit at the Royal Welsh Show on phosphate pollution in our rivers. Yesterday, the Minister published research findings that have been carried out by independent researchers funded by Dŵr Cymru into the River Usk. It looked at daily levels of phosphorus in the river. Twenty-one per cent of those daily loads are the result of sewage treatment works. Those are elderly works without the modern levels of sophistication, and they need to be upgraded so that that can be reduced. Twelve per cent comes from what the researchers describe as other categories: septic tanks, urban run-off. One per cent comes from combined sewage outflow areas, and 67 per cent comes as a result of agricultural use of the land along the riverbanks.
That's why it is necessary to have a mature, non-blaming conversation with our farmer colleagues. I'm going to be absolutely clear about that. I'm not giving you these figures in any sense of wanting to point the finger at anybody, but it is just to illustrate the fact that if we are to have the impact on our rivers that I know the Member will want to see, and that's shared around the Chamber, you have to have a mature conversation in which all the interests that have a part to play are prepared to be part of that conversation, to recognise the actions that they can take. Cumulatively, that will lead to making the difference.

Perinatal Mental Health

Siân Gwenllian AC: 6. Will the First Minister provide an update on services to support women in Arfon who are affected by perinatal mental health problems? OQ58234

Mark Drakeford AC: Thank you. Llywydd, recurrent investment of £3 million has allowed health boards across Wales to develop community perinatal mental health teams. Prevention and early intervention ensures that more women receive effective support as close to home as possible. In Arfon, this includes a specialist nurse, working as part of the wider perinatal mental health team.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Thank you very much. Next week, I will be co-sponsoring an event to mark the first anniversary of the unit for mothers and babies in the south, Uned Gobaith. As you know, this unit was opened in the middle of the pandemic, and it's faced challenges as a result of that, but, of course, it is developing to be a very valuable resource for women who experience mental health issues around the perinatal period.
One in four women can develop problems of this kind. I am therefore concerned about mothers in my constituency and across the north of Wales that there is no access to a specialist unit close to home for these mothers. Will you commit to develop specialist support in an appropriate location? You talk about a nurse, but we need an appropriate location for women in north Wales. Will you prioritise moving forward with the creation of this provision? It has been in the pipeline for some time. We need to see action.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, thank you very much to Siân Gwenllian, and thank you to her for co-sponsoring the event next week. From everything that I've heard, the first year of the unit in Tonna Hospital has been very successful, and we're trying to draw lessons out of those experiences. Also, Llywydd, I understand the points that the Member makes about in-patient provision in north Wales, and much work has been done already by the specialist services committee on this issue.
Now, in order for an independent unit to operate, it would need to meet the standards required by the relevant royal colleges, and that includes the number of patients that would be required to sustain a specialist unit of this kind. That's what people in north Wales are currently discussing: can we establish a unit in north Wales where the royal colleges will be content to give their seal of approval for that to move forward? Those discussions are ongoing, and I know that all opportunities are being taken to accelerate the process of agreeing a range of practical proposals.

Access to Education

Darren Millar AC: 7. What action is the Welsh Government taking to promote access to education in rural Conwy and Denbighshire? OQ58201

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member, Llywydd, for the question. All children in Wales have a right to access education within their own areas. Local authorities are responsible for planning school places and must ensure that there are sufficient schools providing primary and secondary education in their areas.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you for that response, First Minister. I was actually raising the question because of concerns about access to further education for some of my constituents. You'll be aware of the excellent provision that there has been over many years at Coleg Llysfasi, which is just outside Ruthin, which provides agricultural courses and animal-related courses as well, in terms of their small animal course provision.
It is a matter of great regret to me that Coleg Cambria has recently announced that it intends to change the location of those small animal courses that are available at Coleg Llysfasi. It has made that decision with no consultation with students, no consultation with staff, and no consultation with the parents of students either.
The result of the withdrawal of the animal care courses at Coleg Llysfasi means that the Welsh language provision of courses will be hampered as a result of the relocation of these courses to Northop. In addition to that, it will make access to those courses very difficult, particularly for those students who've already started some of their courses and hope to progress on to other years as well, because many will have, now, trips of up to an hour in each direction in order to access their courses. That's clearly unacceptable.
Given that FE colleges are in receipt of significant income from the Welsh Government, I would like to ask you if the Welsh Government will consider putting obligations on FE colleges to make sure that they are required to consult when they are proposing significant changes in the future to the location of courses, given the significant impact on students and staff.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, can I thank Darren Millar for raising that issue this afternoon? While I'm very familiar with Llysfasi and the work it does, and indeed the excellent work carried out by Coleg Cambria, that's the first I've heard of the specific issue that he's set out comprehensively this afternoon. The Minister will have heard what he has to say. I'm sure he'll be happy to look at whether there are changes to arrangements that need to be put in place, or whether it's more a matter of pursuing the individual concern that Darren Millar has raised this afternoon.

Animal Welfare

Llyr Gruffydd AC: 8. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the increased risk to animal welfare as a result of the cost-of-living crisis? OQ58242

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, the cost-of-living crisis has had an impact on all aspects of life in Wales, including increased risk to animal welfare. We assess that risk together with our partners in the farming unions, third sector organisations, and through the Welsh Government's established animal health and welfare group.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you for that. I had the privilege, last week, of visiting the Almost Home Dog Rescue charity near Mold, and I know that other Members have been and others will do so soon. Of course, there was an increase in the number of people who took pets into their homes during the pandemic, and now, as we're returning to some kind of normality, people realise that they perhaps have to let those animals go, but also, in the wake of the cost-of-living crisis, people can't afford to keep dogs and other pets. Simultaneously, charities such as these are having more difficulty in raising funds, because of the cost-of-living crisis. So, can I ask whether the Government has given any consideration in terms of providing practical financial support for any of these charities, because, at the end of the day, we are going to see animal welfare suffering appallingly if a number of these animals have to be put down?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, thank you to Llyr Gruffydd for that supplementary question. It's true what he said. Some figures show that over 3 million households additionally have bought pets during the pandemic than was previously the case. So, something major has happened in this area, and, with regard to the cost-of-living crisis and costs, a lot of families are facing pressures in that regard.
I know that the Minister and the chief veterinary officer are working very closely with the third sector. They do excellent work; of course, the Government's stance is to support people in that sector and to assist them. I don't know if we can do that financially, but we do do it in other ways, to support them in the important work that they do.

I thank the First Minister.

2. Business Statement and Announcement

The next item is the business statement and announcement, and I call on the Trefnydd to make that statement. Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch, Llywydd. There are no changes to this week's business. Draft business for the next three weeks is set out in the business statement and announcement, which can be found amongst the meeting papers available to Members electronically.

Natasha Asghar AS: Minister, could I please request two statements? The first is from the Minister for health on increasing the availability of GP appointments in Wales. I know my colleague Sam Kurtztouched upon this earlier, but one of the biggest concerns of people in my region is the difficulty and frustration they face in making appointments to see their GP. In a move designed to ease pressure on GPs and to leave them with more time to see the most sick patients and those with complex issues, the health Secretary, Sajid Javid, has announced that the law will be changed so that patients will no longer need to see their family doctor to be signed off work. Pharmacists, nurses, occupational therapists and physiotherapists will be given powers to issue fit notes under reforms that will free up many more GP appointments and help alleviate the pressure that GPs currently face. The move has been welcomed by patient groups and the Royal College of General Practitioners, as it will allow more patients in south-east Wales to access more GP appointments. So, may I ask for a statement from the Minister for health on how this will change how we work here in Wales, for the benefit of GPs and patients alike?
The second part, Minister, is that I'd like to request a statement from the Minister for Climate Change about the proposed deposit-return scheme. Several businesses from across my region of south-east Wales and further afield have been in touch raising their concerns about the scheme. All of the businesses that I have spoken to are conscious of their environmental responsibilities; however, they fear that they will be hit with significant trading barriers because the Welsh Government intends to include glass in the scheme and pursue a digital DRS. One brewery told me that the scheme will impose significant costs on businesses, because including glass will require multiple labels and, consequently, businesses will struggle to cover the annual registration costs, producer fees, as well as labelling requirements. They also fear only big global brands will be able to adapt to the new rules more easily than smaller independent businesses, and that many companies will simply choose not to sell their products here in Wales. So, I'd be grateful, Minister, if you could please make a statement about what the Welsh Government is doing to address the legitimate concerns of businesses across Wales. Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. With regard to your first question around increasing GP appointments through the way that you suggested—it's not just a general practitioner that does certain things—you'll be aware that the Minister has been working very closely with all primary care professionals—so, pharmacists, for instance, where we have increased the number of provisions that they do. I'm not aware that this is something the Minister for Health and Social Services is looking at. She's obviously in the Chamber and will have heard your question, but, if she has anything further to add, I will ask her to write to you.
In response to your ask for a statement around a deposit-return scheme from the Minister for Climate Change, this is a piece of work that has now been going extensively. When I was back in the portfolio a couple of years ago, the deposit-return scheme, we were working on it across the UK, along with the UK Government and the Scottish Government as well. I appreciate what some companies will have said to you. Those are certainly responses that I recognise, and legitimate concerns. However, the scheme is being worked through. We're also doing a significant amount around extended producer responsibility, and I'm sure, when the scheme has been worked through, the Minister will be happy to do a written statement.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you. Trefnydd, yesterday I visited Rhondda food bank and I have had many headteachers contacting me, gravely concerned about families in the region that I represent, and specifically concerned about what the situation will be over the summer. Clearly, the Minister and the First Minister have announced that there will be support available in terms of free school meals for families that are already in receipt of free school meals, but one of the concerns that has been expressed to me is those who fall between the cracks and those who perhaps aren't going to be able to benefit from the programmes that are run in the schools over the summer because of transport costs. We heard evidence last week as a children's committee that transport is a barrier for people to attend school, and it has an impact on attendance, so that will only deteriorate further over the summer without transport to schools available too. So, I'd like to ask for a statement from the education Minister before the summer for us to understand what the situation is and what provision there will be for families, for clarity.
Can I also draw your attention, please—? You'll also be aware that we, as Members of the Senedd, receive a note letting us know if the Minister is in our constituency or region. These are very useful so that we can prepare for those visits, or let a Minister know if we will be in attendance too, but the details aren't always in these statements. We only find out from some Ministers that they are in a region on a specific date, but we don't have any idea where they'll be in the region. So, can I ask for consistency in this information, please?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Both the Minister for Education and Welsh Language and the Minister for Social Justice, I know, are doing a great deal of work to support not just schools in relation to food being provided in school holidays in place of free school meals, but also to charity schemes as well. So, I'm not sure if there's any further work to update you upon ahead of the school holidays, but I will certainly—. Both the Ministers are in the Chamber and will have heard your request.
You should certainly always receive notification—every Member should—when a Minister is in your constituency or region, and I will certainly ask for private offices to be reminded that it is really important that this information goes out, and to ensure officials are aware as well, because consistency is really important. And I think it's also nice for Members to let other Members know when they're in their constituencies also.

Hefin David AC: The Minister will be well aware of some of the issues pertaining to Bryn Group in Gelligaer in my constituency,which affects the communities of Gelligaer, Pen-y-bryn and Nelson. We had a very effective liaison committee that was established by Caerphilly County Borough Council that ended just before the pandemic began. I'm trying to get the liaison committee re-established, with the cross-party support of local councillors, and I'm finding a lot of resistance from officers of the council, for reasons I can't understand. One of the things they're saying is that a liaison committee would somehow be unlawful. I'd like a statement from the Counsel General on that, because I don't think that's the case.
Would the Trefnydd support the principle of liaison committees in these circumstances? She knows in her other brief how useful they've been, and would she make it clear that, actually, this is a very helpful way of resolving some of those issues that are affecting those communities?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Yes, certainly, from a planning point of view, I absolutely agree such liaison committees are very useful in practice. They help de-escalate community tensions where businesses are operating very close to communities. And I certainly think, where they work well—and they do work well in many places—they certainly help with that. They're certainly not unlawful. I think it's a shame that you haven't been able to get that cross-party support, and I would urge you to continue to do so, but I'm sure there is guidance available to assist you.

Altaf Hussain AS: Minister, I would like to ask the Government to schedule a debate on bus services and the important role they play in supporting active travel, with positive impacts on the environment and connecting communities. Recently, the bus operator, Easyway, announced they will cease trading on 31 July, which comes as a huge blow to the communities in Bridgend that have relied on their bus services. We will lose three routesand, according to the council, no other company has come forward to fill the gap. We need a debate about how it is possible to reach our targets for active travel and climate change action when our bus services are so fractured. Thank you, Minister.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, and the Member raises a very important point. I'm sure all of us, as Members of this Senedd, receive a huge amount of correspondence regarding bus services from our constituents. As you're aware, the Welsh Government will be bringing forward some legislation around bus travel in this term of Government.

Delyth Jewell AC: I'd like to ask for a debate in Government time, please, on the strategic priorities and objectives statement to Ofwat. I understand it will be laid in front of the Senedd next week, but, in the past, there hasn't been a debate on the process, but recently, in Westminster, there was a debate. I'd like to make sure that MSs have the same opportunity to discuss and challenge the process, because it helps to determine how our water systems are regulated, how the environment will be protected, how vulnerable customers will be protected or otherwise in their water bills, if they need it. It's really serious stuff, I'm sure you'll agree, and it shouldn't just be nodded through. We've had debates recently on flooding, on storm overflow systems, and the impact of sewage in our rivers. We know that major investment work is needed to protect that and to protect against climate change, and this is really a matter of public safety and there needs to be investment now.
So, could we have a debate on this, please, because I fear that making a decision on an England-and-Wales basis won't work and it won't make sense, because Dŵr Cymru isn't a company that just sends profits to shareholders; they reinvest, they support vulnerable customers? The SPS is the only opportunity we have to make sure that the process and the final decision make sense for Wales. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. The Member raises a really important point, particularly around Dŵr Cymru. There won't be time to undertake such a statement in Government business time ahead of the summer recess, but I will certainly ask the Minister for Climate Change to consider a request for a written statement.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Trefnydd, I've had an e-mail recently from a volunteer in the Cardiff office of the legal charity Support Through Court, which, for the last eight years, has been funded by the Ministry of Justice. This isn't just a Cardiff problem; these are volunteers who support people throughout Wales who are having to grapple with the civil justice system. And it would appear that the Ministry of Justice is planning on changing the way they fund the civil justice system, and they're now going to have a system of competition, which means that the small number of volunteers, supported by a very small sum of money, could simply be forced to cease their activities and close, which means that the 5,000 clients they supported last year, and the 700 face-to-face contacts they've had with individuals so far this year—that service could simply disappear. So, I wonder if we could have a statement from the Counsel General on what the implications would be of the loss of funding for Support Through Court, because this is an incredibly stressful thing for anybody to have to do, and legal aid simply doesn't cover most people. So, I think this is a really serious matter, and I wondered if we could have a statement as soon as possible.

Joyce Watson took the Chair.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. You've certainly raised a very important issue, and I know it's a real matter of concern to the Welsh Government that the service provided by Support Through Court in Cardiff civil justice centre does really appear to be at real risk of being withdrawn. There's no guarantee it would be replaced. I am aware that the Counsel General did raise this issue directly with the new justice Minister, Lord Bellamy, about the uncertainty of future funding, to press home how important this was. The Ministry of Justice advise that voluntary sector future grant funds for helping litigants in person understand court processes when attending court will be the subject of open competition, as you said. So, what is not clear at this stage is what it will mean for the provision of services in Wales. The Counsel General has committed to continuing to engage with the Ministry of Justice and will consider the request for a statement.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: In mid May, James Evans asked a topical question about the Government's purchase of Gilestone Farm in his constituency. In response, the economy Minister stressed the importance of protecting the Green Man brand, and emphasised that the purchase was to do with keeping the Green Man festival in Wales. The Minister underscored the importance of the brand and the festival. However, in his response a week later, the First Minister said that it was about developing other elements within the Green Man business, and not the festival. So, I and many others have been wondering which is it: is the proposal to lease it to the company for festival purposes, or is it to lease it to the company for other purposes, and what are those other purposes? Finally, I note that the Minister said at the time that the Government didn't pay above market value for Gilestone, and the amount paid was £4.25 million. However, this sales brochure here shows it for sale for £3.25 million—£1 million less than what the Government paid for it. So, can I ask that the economy Minister brings an update to the Senedd regarding the business plan for Gilestone, and also clarifies what the Government did to verify that the property value was correct?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. So, the Welsh Government is still awaiting the business plan, and what the Welsh Government will require and expects from that business plan is for Green Man to set out the activities to be undertaken throughout the year on the site. And that will include also how the land will continue to be farmed. So, as I say, we are still waiting for that business plan.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: As everybody heads out for the summer to make the best of the great outdoors that we have here in Wales, could we have a statement on Welsh Government support, past and going forward, for Adventure Smart Cymru? It's a brilliant website, platform, social media presence that seeks to promote safe, healthy outdoor activities—hill walking, mountain biking, paddle boarding, canoeing, boating, open-water swimming, and more—by providing people with safe, up-to-date, reliable information about how to make the most of the outdoors, but to do it safely and to minimise, I have to say, the impact on mountain rescue or the coastguard service, or anybody else, not getting themselves into trouble as well.
Could we also have a statement on the extended review of the learner travel policy in Wales? It's been extended, for good reasons, to take in more thoughts on a slightly extended remit as well. I met with parents last night in my own constituency, keen to feed in their views around the 3-mile criteria for secondary schools and how this has to relate to safe routes to schools as well. I'm keen to say that, in their thoughts, 2 miles would be more appropriate, particularly for some of the younger children. So, an update on that and when we'll hear back from that review would be very, very helpful.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I think you've just reminded us that, despite many benefits to individuals, and of course to Wales, we should be very keenly aware of the potential risks associated with outdoor recreation, and informing and educating visitors on enjoying the outdoors safely is a really important aspect of what we do to promote the great outdoors here in Wales. Welsh Government have supported NRW in the development and promotion of the countryside code and a series of activity-specific codes, as well as funding campaigns promoting responsible recreation, such as Visit Wales's Addo campaign.
In relation to learner travel policy, as you mentioned, an initial review of the Measure took place back in 2020-21, and that concluded at the end of the previous Government term, a year ago. So, from the initial review it was very clear, I think, that a more detailed and more thorough review of the Measure was required. So, I know officials are presently putting in place a comprehensive engagement programme that will ensure all relevant stakeholders to the wider learner travel Wales review do have that opportunity to fully input and be engaged. So, stakeholders will shortly be invited to a range of engagement events that will look in greater detail at the Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008 in its form currently, and I think it's really important that we have constituents—if they too want to put into that review, it would be very welcome.

3. Statement by the Minister for Social Justice: Refugee Week 2022: Healing

Joyce Watson AC: We now move on to item 3, a statement by the Minister for Social Justice: Refugee Week 2022: Healing. I call on the Minister for Social Justice, Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you. This week we mark Refugee Week. This is an opportunity to celebrate the wonderful contributions sanctuary seekers bring to Wales. The celebrations will bring together people from all backgrounds to help create better understanding between communities and promote integration.

Jane Hutt AC: Since we celebrated Refugee Week last year, the plight of those who are forced to leave their country to flee war or persecution has been highlighted more than ever, with the evacuation of Afghanistan and war in Ukraine to name just two of many world events affecting so many people. I've delivered several statements in relation to our support for people from Ukraine recently, and will continue to do so. However, I want to focus on our broader support for our sanctuary seekers today.
We are privileged to offer sanctuary to those who arrive in Wales, to take a compassionate approach to integration, understanding the trauma they have faced. Wales has enjoyed a long history of welcoming refugees, and we continue to value and benefit from their skills, entrepreneurial spirit and the sharing of their cultures. In this Refugee Week we reiterate our ambition to make Wales a nation of sanctuary. I've been truly heartened to see how this has come to life over the past three years, since I launched our nation of sanctuary plan in January 2019—a plan that does not belong solely to the Welsh Government, but to all the people and institutions who make up our country and want to give what they can for a humanitarian purpose. We have seen this through an inspiring response to the COVID pandemic, the evacuation of Afghanistan and recently the Ukraine war: members of the public, local authorities, charities, faith leaders and organisations across Wales coming forward to support those who need help. This kindness embodies what we mean by being a nation of sanctuary.
Our unique approach in Wales, often referred to as 'team Wales' has led to many innovative ways of working. I am particularly grateful to Urdd Gobaith Cymru for genuinely embodying their long humanitarian response and purpose by stepping up and offering temporary accommodation to those desperately in need, first from Afghanistan and now from Ukraine. I have visited two of our welcome centres for Ukrainian refugees, including the Urdd yesterday, with the First Minister, witnessing the warm welcome they provide for Ukrainian refugees and the wraparound support with the local authority, health board staff and volunteers. Many families will remember their stay with the Urdd, and many have gone on to learn Welsh as part of their resettlement journey. The Urdd are, therefore, deserved winners of the First Minister’s special award at this year’s St David’s awards.
Once again, a fitting theme has been chosen for this year’s Refugee Week: healing. Whilst every sanctuary seeker will have their own personal story, all would share a common goal of surviving and the courage to rebuild their lives. And we know that part of the healing process for many is about restarting their lives and integrating with their community. We want this to start from day one of their arrival. The nation of sanctuary plan sets out the actions we are undertaking to ensure inequalities experienced by these communities are reduced, access to opportunities increased, and relations between these communities and wider society improved.
Our successful ReStart project, which ended on 31 March 2022, delivered support to 853 refugees over the three years. We have continued to fund ESOL hubs in Wales to ensure sanctuary seekers and refugees can access classes in Wales to improve and enhance their language skills. We are working to encourage businesses to consider recruiting refugees to make their workplaces inclusive of their needs.
Schools are starting to achieve schools of sanctuary status, providing a welcoming place of safety for all, making children feel part of the school's community, helping with the healing process. In March, I was delighted to join St Cyres School in Penarth, to present their award in becoming a school of sanctuary.
We have continued to provide funding to the Welsh Refugee Council and its partners to deliver our Wales sanctuary service and move-on services. We've also funded Asylum Justice to continue to provide legal advice and Housing Justice Cymru to expand hosting capacity across Wales. We've provided free access to internet at all asylum accommodation across Wales throughout the COVID-19 pandemic, and continue to do so, which has meant people have been able to connect with their family members, keep studying, and continue to access vital health information and updates. We provided free transport to refugees to allow them to integrate with Welsh communities, and we are currently reviewing the next stage of those schemes. 
Every individual action—some of which I have outlined in this statement—brings us closer to becoming a nation of sanctuary and reaffirms the welcoming and caring reputation of our country. We stand with refugees from across the world, regardless of how they arrived. The UK Government policy to send people to Rwanda and the Nationality and Borders Act 2022 will be detrimental to the healing process and divisive. It is our moral duty to enable people to seek safety and find an inclusive welcome here in Wales.
Focus should be on improving the asylum system, not finding new ways to make the system more challenging and prolonged for people seeking safety. The decision by the Home Office to use electronic tagging is abhorrent and completely against our position as a nation of sanctuary. Those vulnerable people who come to our country seeking safety and sanctuary should be treated with dignity and respect, not tagged and criminalised. Safe and legal routes must be developed for asylum seekers to claim asylum from outside the UK, negating the need for perilous journeys and disrupting the business model of people smugglers.
Men, women and children arrive in the UK because of existing family or kinship ties, their ability to speak English, or as a consequence of cultural connections often linked to former British colonialism. We stand with refugees from across the world, regardless of how they have arrived. We celebrate how they enrich our communities in Wales, how their own healing journey turns to success, and how we benefit from this as a nation of sanctuary.

Joel James MS: Thank you, Minister, for your statement today and I believe that everyone here is going to agree wholeheartedly with most of your sentiments. I would like to start by saying that recognising the plight of refugees is a fundamental part of our humanity and it is right for us to take action to help those fleeing conflict and persecution, and Refugee Week is a time for us to reflect on our own actions as to how we have helped those who have come in need and have asked for our help.
It is overwhelming to think that the number of forcibly displaced people around the world now stands at more than 100 million, and I would like to pay tribute to all those who work tirelessly to help refugees across the world. There are still so many who will be unknown to us who have given so much to help others. Refugee Week is a fantastic opportunity to bring communities together and encourage better understanding, and there is no better way than through art, culture and educational events to celebrate the contribution of refugees to the United Kingdom.
With this in mind, this year's theme of 'healing' is rather poignant. When we look at the Ukraine conflict, as with so many other conflicts, although the immediate concern is to get people to safety, we have to be aware of the long-term questions of how we deal with repairing and rebuilding the lives of refugees, and how we heal the impact of conflict without masking the suffering or forgetting the trauma. The process, ultimately, comes down to forgiveness, but this is much easier to say than to do, especially when so much pain, suffering and hurt has been caused.
We must be well aware that the healing process should not only extend to the psychological trauma of fleeing your country or being separated from family or losing loved ones, but also to the loss of community, to the potential loss of identity, and to the loss of home, and that all these issues affect people in different ways. We must also be mindful that the manifestation of many of these issues will be hidden. Depression, suicide, family breakdown, PTSD and health problems may well eclipse people's lives as they try to heal from their experiences.
Every nation in the world that deals with refugees faces similar problems, in that refugees rarely look for asylum in small numbers. Refugees are often fleeing for their lives in thousands and, as we have seen from the Ukraine and Russian conflict, in the millions. This creates problems with how responding countries deal with the overwhelming numbers. Whilst we are all horror struck at the plight of refugees, we need to be aware that Governments have the unenviable task to try and deal with refugees as best as they can, in light of the situation they're in, which is often extremely complex. And they have to do so objectively, which, unfortunately, often sees them accused of lacking empathy and emotion, but we have to be mindful that when the correct processes are in place, they achieve much more, and even though the systems may not always work at first, there is always an opportunity to evaluate, reflect and improve. And this, Minister, brings me to my first question.
In 2017, you wrote a letter to Kevin Foster, the Minister for Future Borders and Immigration, urging the UK Government to amend its legislation to provide a right for asylum seekers to work in any occupation in the UK if their application had taken more than six months after the full evidence had been submitted, and I would very much like to know if there is any update on asylum right to work. Secondly, I would like to know what intentions does the Welsh Government have to extend the free transport scheme, and do you have any plans to expand the scope of the scheme for asylum seekers? Thirdly, I wonder, Minister, given that voluntary jobs are one of the best ways to learn, understand and integrate into a new country, whether more voluntary opportunities for asylum seekers and refugees can be made available. And finally, Minister, would you be able to update us on the progress of the nation of sanctuary commitment to essential skills development and digital literacy? Thank you.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Joel James. And thank you for your support, in principle, for the statement, and for us being a nation of sanctuary. Thank you for acknowledging Refugee Week, and also, I'm sure, implicit in many of your comments, about the fact that for Refugee Week the theme is healing, and that is particularly important in terms of the trauma that so many refugees and asylum seekers are facing when they come and we welcome them to this country.
I think, in the past year, we were not anticipating, but we fully responded, as a country, in terms of the Afghan refugees and their arrival here, working on a Team Wales basis, which actually included some of the armed forces who had been involved in the ARAP scheme, where there were interpreters who they'd worked with, with those who are based in Wales, to ensure that we could provide the best possible support to Afghan refugees. We've welcomed approximately 700 people from Afghanistan and many of them, the majority of them, are now resettled across Wales. And also, now, of course, we are supporting our Ukrainian refugees as well.
What is important, and it goes to answer some of your questions, is that our vision is about making Wales not just welcoming to migrants, but harnessing the opportunities that migration brings to help our economy and communities to thrive. Actually, it's about a nation of sanctuary and being able to help those who are dispersed or resettled in Wales to make sure that they access those services and that they can integrate with communities from day one. And that means, of course, access to information on their rights and entitlements, including sections on health, education and employment, and much of that has been made available on our website.
You ask about the asylum rights programme. The Welsh Refugee Council has recently been awarded funding for the Wales sanctuary service, which replaces the asylum rights programme, which is in place from 1 April 2022 for at least three years. I think that's important to demonstrate that we're moving forward, learning from the lessons of how we've funded the services up until that point, but ensuring that it is the Wales sanctuary service that is embedded in the work that they're doing.
In my statement, I did comment on the fact that we've taken forward our free transport scheme, and it is important to recognise that that's something that was a pilot, which is now being evaluated, which we're taking forward in terms of recognising that this has been very important for our refugees, particularly those coming from Ukraine, alongside all our refugees in Wales. I think that it is important, just in terms of evaluating the transport scheme, that we look at the pilot. The Welsh Refugee Council ran a pilot of free transport for asylum seekers from January to March. Surveys were undertaken with those who were using the pilot to understand the benefits and the impact of having free transport for asylum seekers, funding was identified and taken forward for further access to free transport, but also it was about making sure that we could look to our transport colleagues as well, because this is something that they have got to embed into their policies and their schemes. Initial feedback has concluded that access to free transport has helped asylum seekers to access opportunities that are not achievable in their weekly budget. And it's about access to visiting places of interest, healthcare appointments, ESOL classes, visiting friends—all of which are important in terms of integration and well-being.
I think that that also responds to your question about voluntary opportunities, because certainly, this is something, as the Wales sanctuary service and many of the organisations that are working across Wales, including local authorities and the third sector, are encouraging refugees and asylum seekers to volunteer. Going back to the very successful resettlement of Syrian families and refugees who came to Wales, and I recall even in my own constituency, the importance of the local authority offering voluntary opportunities to Syrian refugees who were there themselves, wanting to engage and offer that kind of support. And also, we've seen that very recently with many of the Ukrainian refugees who've come to Wales who, themselves, are wanting to contribute, obviously, and seeking to work and be independent, but also to volunteer as well. And we certainly found many who were offering to be volunteers, particularly with things like interpretation and translation, but also supporting each other, the children and families, in our welcome centres.
So, we're moving forward on all of the points that you've made, but recognising, which I hope you do, that this is against the context of a very challenging time when we need to ensure that our values as a nation of sanctuary, which I certainly share whenever I can with UK Government Ministers—that they're actually taken seriously and that the hostile environment is totally against, and those policies from the UK Government, I've mentioned, are totally against our nation of sanctuary spirit and delivery.

Sioned Williams MS: Thank you for the statement, Minister, to mark Refugee Week.

Sioned Williams MS: I'm looking forward to attending the Home Away From Home exhibition in the National Waterfront Museum in Swansea later this week, which is a celebration of the people and organisations who've been involved in making Swansea a city of sanctuary for over 10 years.
Getting to a safe place, of course, is only the first step—an often perilous and exhausting step—on a long journey for refugees, both literally and figuratively, which, as we've seen in recent weeks, is made even harder by Governments like those in power in Westminster, which dehumanise refugees, which devalue and deny human rights to those who've often experienced violence and persecution while on that journey towards sanctuary and normality, a journey that most of us can't even begin to imagine. After surviving that, after coping with that, then there is the incredibly difficult but key task of making a new life in a new country, the first step to healing, and being unable to do so is what too many refugees find frustratingly and impossibly challenging.
We have now seen how Wales has welcomed the chance to provide aid and sanctuary to those fleeing Ukraine and other nations, such as Afghanistan and Syria in the past. The response from ordinary people in Wales has been so heartening, but we heard from the Minister last week about some of the difficulties around other parts of the journey towards a new life. A few weeks ago, I asked you, Minister, about the provision of mental health support available to refugees arriving in Wales. Specifically, I wanted you to provide figures on waiting times and lists for those trying to access those support services, after it was revealed that, on a UK level, some refugees are waiting up to two years to access trauma support. I was therefore wondering if you could be able, today, to provide figures or estimates as to the situation on this in Wales. In your response also, you noted that the Welsh Government were exploring options to provide additional mental health and well-being support at the welcome centres, so I was wondering if any progress has been made with this and what the timescale will be on that.
I want to take this opportunity to put on record Plaid Cymru's thanks to the campaigners, organisations and human rights lawyers who succeeded in challenging and stopping the first flight due to take those seeking asylum from the UK to Rwanda under a despicable, immoral policy, which we know would've had devastating and dangerous consequences for those who are our brothers and sisters. Doctors Without Borders conducted mental health sessions with refugees and asylum seekers who'd been forcibly removed from Australia by way of a similar policy, to indefinite detention centres on Nauru island. Doctors Without Borders found some of the worst mental health suffering they had encountered in 50 years of experience of supporting refugees. Children as young as nine were having suicidal thoughts, committing acts of self-harm or even attempting suicide. If the Tory Westminster Government continues to play political games with the lives of those seeking our help and protection, we are putting these people at risk of a horrifying mental health collapse, like we saw in Australia.
The tagging pilot announced last week, which you've referenced, is equally shocking. The UN Refugee Agency has said that a clear majority of people arriving in the UK by small boat are refugees fleeing conflict or persecution and not, as the Westminster Government argues, in contrary to its own data, economic migrants. So, what is the Welsh Government doing to ensure that our aspiration to be a nation of sanctuary is achievable in the light of such barbarous policies? How is the Government going to ensure it's able to protect all people seeking safety equally in Wales?
Finally, I've been contacted by a constituent who is hosting a Ukrainian refugee. She has been trying for weeks to arrange an appointment at the nearest biometric residence permit centre in Cardiff, as is required to obtain leave to stay and access services beyond the first six months. She told me, 'As far as I'm aware, Cardiff is the only place in Wales where you can get a BRP, and, to date, it's impossible to get an appointment. The nearest centre offering appointments is Barnstable library, which, as the crow flies, and as the computer said, is approximately 50 miles away.' But, of course, in reality, it's closer to 150 miles and a six-hour round trip. My constituent also told me that there are no places available on an English for speakers of other languages course until September where she lives in Port Talbot for the Ukrainian woman she is hosting, which is also hampering her efforts to settle in her new home. So, what can the Welsh Government do to ensure people are able to access the visa appointments and support they need and that the stress of trying to make a new life for themselves is alleviated as much as possible? Diolch.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Sioned Williams. Swansea is a remarkable city of sanctuary. I remember visiting both universities and Gower College and the work that they've done. I think Julie James was involved as well, probably in her constituency capacity. It's absolutely thriving, and I'm sure that exhibition will be vivid and powerful. In fact, Joel James mentioned the ways in which during Refugee Week we often do celebrate the cultural and artistic contributions from our refugees, and we do that in recognition of their skill, talent and the cultural lessons and learning from that.
Your questions are key to how we can call ourselves a nation of sanctuary, aren't they? In terms of support, particularly for those, as you say, who've come here with perilous journeys and trauma—of course, yesterday, the First Minister and I met many at the Urdd welcome centre, and the Counsel General and I visited another welcome centre—and also leaving behind, for the Ukrainians, their husbands and partners who are fighting in the war, the journeys that they've taken, the new life in our country has to be powerful in terms of the support that we give. Actually, a strong word that was coming from many of the refugees yesterday was that they felt that the experience that they had at the Urdd was 'healing'. They didn't know that this was necessarily the word that has been the theme. They felt it was healing—the environment, the care and the compassion.

Jane Hutt AC: There has to be access to mental health support. In the welcome centres, in both the ones I visited, I met with nurses from the community mental health teams, and also in terms of other needs—health checks for those who are attending the welcome centres. There's no waiting when you go to a welcome centre, you see the teams. And, of course, they're registering with GPs. But the nurses were saying how privileged they felt to be able to offer this kind of support at this time. That's the expression of a nation of sanctuary by the professionals.
For those who are staying with sponsor families, I will look into this further in terms of access to mental health services, because clearly, in terms of the welcome that we're seeking to give—the health board, the local authorities—it's crucial that we can be held to account as to what it is that's been provided, but also give you reassurance on that. I certainly have found in my feedback that that access has been able to be delivered.
I'll just go on to some of the other points that you made about services once people come to Wales. Clearly, on the biometric centre and the fact that there was no chance of an appointment and there's only one in Cardiff, that is a UK Government responsibility. I will raise that with the Minister for Refugees, Lord Harrington. I meet with him and my Scottish colleague weekly or fortnightly, and I will raise this with them. But also, it's unacceptable that there's that delay, because those who are coming and are refugees want to work, they want to get on with their lives.
As far as ESOL classes are concerned—the education Minister has joined us as well—I know that universities, local authorities and the third sector are offering support, so I'll get an update on what's happening over the summer holidays. I'll certainly be doing another statement before the end of this term, I hope—if not oral, then written, an update—because ESOL is crucial for integration.
I want to finally thank you for your comments about the cruel, cruel policies that this UK Government is enacting to try to send asylum seekers to Rwanda, a cruel and inhumane response to those who seek sanctuary in the UK, and diametrically opposite to our nation of sanctuary approach here in Wales. The UN Refugee Agency is clear that the measures in the Nationality and Borders Act, the offshoring, are at odds with the refugee convention. The UK is a signatory to that. But also, again, there's the tagging as well. Numbers crossing the channel via small boats may be high recently, but the overall number of asylum seekers arriving in the UK is down on previous years, despite the rhetoric—and it is rhetoric—suggesting otherwise. Those who arrive here to seek sanctuary are seeking it because they're vulnerable, and they should be treated with dignity and respect, not treated like a criminal. I do welcome those statement and comments widely condemning this, including from the church. I was very pleased to read the statement from the Bishop of Llandaff, the Right Rev June Osborne. She said:
'Refugee Week offers us all, as schools, churches and communities, the perfect opportunity to come together and celebrate the incredible contribution these refugees and migrants make to our society, whilst also reflecting on the resilience of those who have experienced untold suffering.... This year has been impaired by new legislation that has criminalised many seeking safety, and just this week we’ve witnessed the first shameful attempt to deport asylum seekers to Rwanda',
which, as the First Minister, of course, said, was a dark day. But we hope, as you say, those who have campaigned and enabled us to use their skills and legal support as well—. Of course, it's so important that this is part of our commitment to the European convention on human rights.

Joyce Watson AC: John Griffiths. If I could have short questions and short answers, please, because we've got a long day ahead. Thank you.

John Griffiths AC: Indeed. Thank you very much, Minister, for your statement and your work. I think Wales has made great strides in the way that we welcome asylum seekers and refugees here and look after them and provide the necessary services when they are in our country. It's very good to see, and I think the nation of sanctuary provides a very good framework and focus for that sort of work.
Minister, Newport East is diverse. I was very interested to bump into a young woman, a Ukrainian refugee, at a local parkrun in Newport. She was there with the woman that she is placed with, as it were, and they obviously got on very well and the household were enjoying Ukrainian potato pancakes, which apparently are very tasty. The young woman is a doctor and she's improving her English and very much looking forward to contributing within the Welsh national health service. It was a very positive picture indeed, and it was very good to see. I know we've seen similar positive stories around refugees from Afghanistan, for example. It's absolutely right that these people are having that level of service and welcome, but it's not the same for refugees and asylum seekers from all parts of the world and we have to make sure that it is consistently of that quality. In that respect, Minister, I'd very much echo the comments made about ESOL, because I think that is absolutely vital and we have to make sure that the provision is consistently good right across Wales.
I also think that around Refugee Week we can do more and perhaps we could have more of a campaign to get the right messages across in terms of asylum seekers and refugees, perhaps working with the local press and others, because there are lots of misconceptions, misinformation, and that undermines the sort of welcome that we want to see in our communities. Positive stories about the contributions that asylum seekers and refugees make can be very powerful and help shape perceptions in the right way, Minister, but I think it does need to be co-ordinated and led, and I think that is a role for Welsh Government.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much. I don't think I need to answer. They weren't questions; it was a very, very important statement. I think it just shows that the fact that I'm doing a statement here today on Welsh Refugee Week is important, and that, actually, we've had strong cross-party recognition of what it means to be a nation of sanctuary.
There's just one point that I would say. It's great that you had this refugee doctor from Ukraine in your constituency. I actually met a dentist who was also in a welcome centre in your area. They could work in our NHS, couldn't they, so they're already being put in touch with the organisation Displaced People in Action, who have supported refugee doctors over the last 22 years, because I helped set that up when I was health Minister all those years ago. So, many of those refugee doctors are now working in the NHS. But, for the contribution that refugees want to make, are desperate to make, often there are barriers. We've got to break down those barriers. We'll look at ESOL and the consistency of the offer across Wales. Sadly, in the funding that we're getting from the UK Government for the Ukrainian refugees, there is no funding for ESOL. There was for Afghan refugees; there's no funding for Ukrainian refugees. So, again, we're having to find that money.

Joyce Watson AC: Thank you.

4. Statement by the Deputy Minister for Social Partnership: Pride, and Progress on the LGBTQ+ Action Plan

Joyce Watson AC: I move on now to item 4, a statement by the Deputy Minister for Social Partnership on Pride and progress on the LGBTQ+ action plan. Hannah Blythyn.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Diolch. Pride Month this year marks 50 years since the first UK Pride; 50 years since Saturday 1 July 1972 when people came together to take that first step and bring Pride to the streets of London. Five decades on, we can be proud of how far we've come on LGBTQ+ rights thanks to the activists and allies that came before us. But, we cannot be complacent, with LGBTQ+ communities under attack and our hard-fought-for rights at risk of being rolled back around the world, including, shamefully, here in the UK.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Pride was born out of the need and the will to protest, to fight for equal rights, to be seen, to be ourselves, to be respected, to stand together as a community and to demand an end to discrimination. There is still more to do, and so we have a responsibility to redouble our commitment to continue to change history for the better, here and abroad, and to create a future where we recognise and realise Wales as the most LGBTQ+ friendly nation in Europe.
As a Government, we stand with our LGBTQ+ communities. That's why LGBTQ+ rights are embedded in our programme for government, are a key component of the co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru, and why we are developing our bold action plan. This plan strengthens protections for LGBTQ+ people, promotes equality for all, and helps co-ordinate actions across Government, communities and the country.
Our aim is to publish the action plan this autumn, and we are making progress not just on the plan itself but, importantly, putting commitments into practice. We are fulfilling our commitments to support Pride organisations in Wales. Our support for Pride Cymru continues and, for the first time, we have provided funding to grass-roots Pride events across Wales. We have already given support to Swansea Pride and North Wales Pride, and discussions are under way with Pride in the Port in Newport.
We are enabling more inclusive education, with Welsh Government providing national guidance for schools by the end of this year to help them fully support transgender pupils. This is being done as part of the whole-school approach to relationships and sexuality education, and we want to make it clear that Welsh Government has not endorsed any third party guidance in this area. Recently, our support has enabled Stonewall Cymru and Peniarth to translate into Welsh two books on LGBTQ+ families. The books, distributed to primary schools, will ensure classrooms have access to inclusive literature reflecting the diversity of Wales.
Progress has also been made in sexual health through the HIV action plan for Wales, published for consultation last week. The plan aims to reach the target of zero new HIV transmissions by 2030, to tackle stigma and improve the quality of life of people living with HIV.
Forty years ago, gay people were subject to hateful slurs and prejudiced attacks. Trans people today are being subjected to a similar barrage of hate-fuelled tirades. Extending rights for one group does not mean eroding rights from another. We do not believe improving rights for trans women will damage rights for cisgender women and girls. Our trans communities are hurting, they're afraid, and they're experiencing harm. As a society, we can and must do better than this.
So, we continue to develop our gender service in Wales, which reports shorter waiting times for first assessment than comparable NHS gender services in England and is committed to reducing waiting times further. We are also committed to improving the pathway for transgender young people in Wales. The Welsh Health Specialised Services Committee, responsible for the service, will look at available evidence to further define the clinical service model for the future, and community voices will be front and centre to this work.
In line with our co-operation agreement commitment, we will also seek to devolve additional powers to improve lives and protect transgender people. Our commitment to support LGBTQ+ people seeking sanctuary in Wales and meet our international duty to show leadership on equality has never been more important. We have written to UK Government expressing our horror at their plans to send asylum seekers to Rwanda. This would be devastating for LGBTQ+ people, placing them at risk of ill treatment, discrimination, arbitrary arrest, and detention.
So, LGBTQ+ issues beyond our borders remain crucial to us and, whilst Wales's qualification for the World Cup is to be celebrated, the host country's appalling stance on LGBTQ+ rights cannot be overlooked. Many will not feel safe to travel, or will choose not to in support of Qatar's own LGBTQ+ communities, who cannot live openly and freely as themselves. We will look to use our platform to engage and influence on these important matters.
We are committed to leaving no stone unturned when it comes to banning conversion practices for LGBTQ+ people. We will not abandon our trans communities, as UK Government has done, nor will we just talk the talk when it comes to action. Working with Plaid Cymru, we are undertaking complex work, including seeking legal advice to determine all the levers we have for a ban in Wales, developing our campaign to raise awareness of support services and the horrors of conversion practices, and our plans to establish a working group of experts are under way.
During my recent visit to meet with the Digon group from Ysgol Plasmawr in Cardiff, I asked the students what message they would want me to share in a statement here to mark Pride Month. The message was clear: 'I don't just want to be tolerated, I want to be celebrated.' This Pride Month, and every month, the greatest tribute we can pay to the pioneers that paved the way is to continue to speak up, stand up and play our own part in achieving a fairer future where we feel safe, are supported, with our rights secured, and celebrated.

Altaf Hussain AS: Thank you, Deputy Minister, for your statement, and can I offer my sincere thanks to all those who have worked so hard in producing the action plan so far? I have a few brief questions, if I may, regarding some of the actions. Minister, you will know that suicide is the biggest killer of young people under the age of 35 in the UK, and it disproportionately affects members of the LGBTQ+ community. Moreover, we know that, on average, over five young people take their lives each day, over 200 schoolchildren are lost to suicide every year, and that research has shown that, with the appropriate early intervention and support, suicide by young people can be prevented. It is mentioned in the proposed action plan that there is to be an undertaking of targeted public health work to combat issues for LGBTQ+ people who are disproportionately at risk, including on substance misuse, sexual health and mental health. We're also aware that there are those who are part of the LGBTQ+ community who live in fear of being outed by engaging with any project or being seen to be involved with initiatives, and I'm wondering what specific actions this Government is looking to take to tackle the mental health issues of those who are hidden within the LGBTQ+ community in order to help combat this.
Secondly, I want to understand better what is meant by creating
'a more homogenised approach to private workplace training resources'
so that workplaces can become more LGBTQ+ inclusive. What do you actually mean by a 'homogenised approach'? Why have you decided this is the best course of action? I ask this because I've always taken the view that a one-size-fits-all approach does not allow for the flexibility that is needed, and a fixed model of training will not necessarily suit all the different industries and work cultures that we have. As you have said, discrimination in the workplace remains widespread, which, as we know, is driven by the fear of the unknown, and fear of something different. So, how will this training specifically aim to educate people and change discriminatory behaviour?
Finally, Minister, I wanted to add my words to your positive statement regarding Pride. Pride themes change not only year to year, but from place to place, to reflect and celebrate the community. However, the overreaching message is always the same—whilst we are different, we are also all the same. Although we like and are good at different things and we love different people, we are all human, and we should never be persecuted or judged or treated differently because of those differences. Instead, we should celebrate what makes us unique and what makes us individuals, because, if we do, we can achieve amazing things by including everyone and making the most of our diversity for humankind. Thank you, Minister.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Can I thank the Member for those warm words of support for Pride at the end of his contribution there, and also very much welcome the supportive comments around what we're trying to do in the LGBTQ+ action plan? I'd be more than happy, as we develop the plan, to discuss certain elements that the Member might have a specific interest in. As we do that over the coming weeks and months, I'm more than happy to do that, and I think it's really important that, in this place here, in this Chamber, we do take a very different tone and a very different approach than perhaps elsewhere in terms of standing together to do the right thing.
If I just touch on a couple of specific points you made, Altaf, in that contribution, you're right to highlight the very real challenges that the LGBTQ+ community face in terms of challenges with mental health, isolation. It can stem from a variety of things. We know that it has been exacerbated, perhaps, during the pandemic for people who may have had to remain living with people who they were maybe not out to, who they were not able to be themselves with, or perhaps in an environment that was less than friendly towards them. So, we have done—. As well as what's outlined in the action plan, there is a piece of work that we've been doing to look at the impact of COVID-19 on the LGBTQ+ community particularly. So, it's hoped that can feed into the broader work of the action plan. But I think you make a really valid point, which I'm sure our officials and our experts are already taking forward, in terms of actually making sure people know where the support and resources are and that, if they don't feel able to, they don't have to put their hand up and declare who they are if they don't feel comfortable at that point in life in doing it to be able to access certain services. So, I think there's a really, really important and valid point there.
On LGBTQ+ friendly and inclusive workplaces, I think, absolutely, we spend so much of our time and our life at work, in a workplace, and I know from my own personal experience that, at the point when I was able to be out and be myself at work, I suddenly was not just happier at work, but I was probably more productive; I wanted to be there. And I think when you're in that situation sometimes where you don't feel that you can be yourself, you expend so much energy on that, rather than energy on more positive things, things that you could focus on. So, that's a really important strand of what we're doing. You talk about a homogenous approach, and I recognise what you say, that one size doesn't fit all, but I think it's about having that parity and equality of support and resource for workplaces, whether they be in the public or private sector—and the voluntary sector, of course. And we know that there are really good examples of best practice. We see it in those major organisations, businesses, in Wales who are recognised for their networks and their inclusivity. And we also know that, within the trade union movement, there are a lot of good equality courses there and support for members, and that's another way to facilitate and to disseminate that information within the workplace.
So, I think what we mean is making sure that we get that better practice and make sure that it's shared and everybody has the opportunity to access that support and to have that support at work as well. And, of course, it's central—when we talk about being a nation of fair work, of course, equality in the workplace and being able to be yourself at work is a key part of that in terms of your well-being at work as well.

Sioned Williams MS: Thank you very much for the statement, Deputy Minister.

Sioned Williams MS: I'm proud that the co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru commits the Welsh Government to making Wales the most LGBTQ+ friendly nation in Europe and to calling for the powers to legislate to improve the lives and protect the safety of trans people in Wales to be devolved. It's clear how crucial those commitments are, given how hate crimes against people based on sexual orientation have risen every year in England and Wales since 2016. And figures from Gwent Police, North Wales Police and South Wales Police retrieved by an FOI by BBC Wales have also shown this trend of increasing sexual orientation and transphobic hate crimes in the last year.
I'm glad the Deputy Minister made specific reference in her statement to the way trans people are being made subject to rising intolerance and hate. We must have powers to better protect trans people here in Wales, and I look forward to further progress on this. I also believe that trans women are women and that the way that trans women are being excluded by sporting bodies, whether you agree with it as a method of ensuring fairness or not, is emboldening those who are using sport as a cover for their transphobia and prejudice. When considered together with the mental health issues and suicide rates for trans people, and the tiny proportion of trans athletes who compete in elite sports, it seems that decisions to ban transgender athletes are, in the words of one of America's foremost sports journalists, Dan Wolken, a solution in search of a problem. Sport has such a key role in promoting an inclusive, diverse reflection of our world's citizens, including transgender athletes. So, how are we in Wales, as so rightly put by the students of Ysgol Gyfun Plasmawr's Digon group, going to celebrate our trans citizens who are athletes? I would like to know therefore, Deputy Minister, what conversations you have had with sports organisations and bodies in Wales about the ramifications of the decision taken by FINA and the statements made by Nadine Dorries, that she will encourage UK sporting bodies to follow FINA's lead.
And staying with sport, I was also glad to hear the Deputy Minister reference our responsibility as a nation to call out prejudice and persecution beyond Wales, and the need to ensure our concerns about Qatar's awful record on LGBTQ+ rights are clearly voiced when our national team, and their supporting staff, and Welsh fans, travel there for the World Cup.
So, could the Deputy Minister please outline exactly what conversations she's had with other Governments, the FAW, and other stakeholders regarding this issue? How will we engage with and try to influence a state that can prevent LGBT people from entering their country, or deport LGBT people from Qatar on the grounds of their sexual orientation and gender identity? How is the Government going to ensure that LGBTQ+ fans, those associated with the teams, members of Welsh companies and organisations, are able to play a full part in Wales's World Cup campaign without fear of persecution?
Lastly, I would like to turn to your comments on how Wales is a nation of sanctuary for all—it's so apt that we do that in Refugee Week, and following the debate we've just had—and how Welsh Government has expressed its horror at the Westminster Government's plans to send refugees and asylum seekers to Rwanda. And Plaid Cymru supports your strong words, and shares your concerns on the consequences for LGBTQ+ refugees and the potential risks they would face. The Nationalities and Borders Act 2022 makes it even harder for LGBTQ+ people who are seeking asylum to be recognised and protected. The shameful treatment of some of the world's most vulnerable refugees is one of the reasons the UK has plummeted down the rankings for LGBTQ+ rights across Europe for the third year running. What is the Welsh Government going to do specifically to support LGBTQ+ refugees, and does the Deputy Minister agree with me that if we are to fully protect LGBTQ+ people who wish to make Wales their home, then we need, desperately, a Welsh bill of rights to help us incorporate the international legal protections that they deserve? Diolch.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Thank you, Sioned, for the support.

Hannah Blythyn AC: I think it really is well appreciated, and I think being able to stand and speak in solidarity on issues and matters that make such a difference to people—we're talking about people's lives aren't we—and being able to—. We talk about taking action, but you can't underestimate people speaking up and challenging and taking the right position on these things. There's very little for me to disagree with on anything you said there, particularly around supporting a nation of sanctuary and what we can do on that, and I wholeheartedly agree with your comments.
If I touch first perhaps on what you said around transgender people in sport, and that is something that seems to have—. Like you say, I actually happily missed Nadine Dorries's comments, but I will go and look at that and see what she said once again. But, I think, one of the things you have to say is, we know, as we've said before, the transgender community appears to be one of the most ostracised and unprotected, and failure to recognise and address that, whether that's in sport or in other areas, is a failure in our duty and our mission to secure equality and inclusion. If we're saying our position is clear that LGBTQ+ rights, including trans rights, are human rights, then sport needs to be a place where everyone can take part, and everyone is treated with kindness, dignity and respect. And I think it has to start from a position of—. I could hear murmurs of support in this place here. Sport, in its very essence, is an opportunity to be inclusive and to include people in different communities. And we're not just talking about elite sport; we're talking right across the board as well.
And, I think, very much, we have to start from a position of compassion, fairness and transparency. Those kinds of conversations have already taken place with some of those sporting bodies, and I'm going to be working very closely with my colleague Dawn Bowden from that perspective. It's something that I certainly am going to take forward and move forward now, in terms of actually how we can make sure things are done in this way. I was at a PinkNews event—well, a Parliament reception, which wasn't in Parliament—last week, and I actually met with the cyclist Emily Bridges there, and I've actually invited Emily to come and visit us here to share her experiences, so that we can learn from that and better support and use people's lived experiences too. It's incredibly important that I'm an ally of that community, but I'm not of that community, and I think it's really important, like with anything we do, they are shaping our work and our way forward as well.
If I could just touch on the points you made around hate crime and the rise in hate crime, I think some of it is two-fold, that people are more willing to report it, but unfortunately there is an increase in hate crime. I think we've spoken in this Chamber before about raising awareness, through our Hate Hurts Wales campaigns and the work that we do, that hate crime takes many different forms. At it's extreme and horrific end, it is violent, and, as we've seen, it can lead to really devastating consequences, here in our own capital city. But it's also people thinking that they can say whatever they want to people, and I know I've spoken to things that I've experienced before, here. I find it very difficult at the moment that my wife is a target because of me. I know that she's had a phone call to her work number in this place by somebody who, essentially, was speaking in tongues, told her she was going to burn in hell. Our police forces are trying hard, and we're working very closely with them, but I do think there's more work to do in terms of actually how they handle and treat things like that, because it really wasn't dealt with adequately. And I think these things do need to be improved.
I think that support needs to be there in place for people to actually feel they can report things, because we're not going to change things unless people feel they have that support. And I think there are different ways of doing it—going through the process, from reporting to making it being registered as a hate crime, but actually what's done about it in the future. Also, it goes back to what we're trying to do around education as well. And I keep reading over and over, too often, about other people that are experiencing similar things. It goes back to what we were saying about calling things out. I think there is a challenge for all of us in this place, within our own communities, within our own organisations, within our own political parties, to have a difficult conversation—it can be, sometimes—to take the right approach, and to call this out and actually say, 'This is the impact some of the words, some of the so-called "debate" that people have, can lead to, and the impact and the harm and hurt that it can cause for individual people and whole communities.'

John Griffiths AC: Minister, thank you very much for your statement today. I just wanted to say a little bit about local authorities in Wales and the important role that they have, and ask if you would agree with me that Newport City Council are actually doing a lot of good things at the moment and making real progress on these issues. I know they're fully committed to supporting the Welsh Government's LGBTQ+ action plan, and they have very strong links with communities across the city of Newport, and they have a Pride staff network within the authority, which I think is really delivering results in terms of their internal organisation, but also linking out then to the community.
They've been working with Pride in the Port, and I was pleased that you mentioned them earlier. There will be a march in Newport in September, the first Pride march organised by Pride in the Port, with the local authority in support. There are lots of activities now throughout the local community, the raising of the Progress Pride flag by the council leader and Pride in the Port to celebrate Pride Month. There's an awful lot actually going on at the moment, including an event and a safe space at the Riverfront Theatre, which was created, again, to take forward these activities—to send the right messages. Obviously, you want to work closely with local authorities in Wales, Minister, and I wonder if you would confirm what I hope is the case, that Newport City Council is showing a good example at the moment and doing lots of promising things.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Can I thank John Griffiths for that contribution? I think he's right to shine a light on the role, not just of Newport City Council, but actually the significant part that local authorities can play in our communities, in terms of not just supporting Pride events, but then going back to what Altaf said in terms of their own networks, how they support their own staff, and actually how they create inclusive spaces and opportunities for people in communities—it could be in a city, or whether that's in more urban, more rural communities as well. So, yes, I would very much like to join with you in congratulating Newport City Council, and Jane Hutt—Jane Mudd, sorry. Jane Hutt shows leadership on this as well. [Laughter.] Congratulations to Jane Mudd, as leader of Newport City Council. I was actually talking to Jane at the Wales Armed Forces Day in Wrexham on Saturday, because the baton's being handed over to Newport for next year. And we were talking very excitedly and animatedly about the potential Pride in the Port has, because, as I've said before in this place, and I'll say over and over again, those kinds of landmark Pride events, such as the one in our capital city, are important. We can't underestimate the value of events in communities and cities right across the country. So, Pride in the Port I know is 3 September. I hope to be there myself, and I know Jayne Bryant has actually been in touch with me to get that on my agenda, to make sure I can try and get it in the diary. And I would invite Members to join us on as many Pride marches as we can across the summer, as, actually, we are able to come together in this way as a community once again after the coronavirus pandemic.

Sarah Murphy AS: Thank you, Deputy Minister, for this statement on the action plan today. Last week, we celebrated, as you said, what would have been the birthday of Welshman, Terrence Higgins, and remembered his passing 40 years ago from an AIDS-related illness. Terry was named as the first person in the UK to die from AIDS, but the crisis caused gay and bisexual men to face horrific homophobia and stigma. This undoubtedly contributed to many more lives being lost.
And, whilst we have come a long way in acknowledging this homophobia associated with the HIV and AIDS crisis of the 1980s, it was alarming to see the tropes in the media and public discourse with the reporting of the monkey pox virus recently. The othering, the framing of queer people as a threat, the stereotypes, the negative connotations were reproduced in our mainstream media, as if the lessons from the last 40 years had never happened. And that's why we need governments to be active in tackling homophobia in all its forms, and that is why I welcome this update on the Welsh Government's LGBT action plan today. As you've said, it is about having a place of inclusion and solidarity, as opposed to division and alienation. Whether it is the systemic prejudice in our establishments, those holding public positions or online hate, we still have a long way to go to stamp this out, as we've seen.
So, Minister, will you agree with me, in endorsing the statement, to say to all people who may be struggling, facing discrimination or prejudice, 'There is nothing wrong with you; there is a lot wrong with the world in which we live'? Also, it's about emphasising and really coming out and saying to those people who are making those comments about the monkey pox virus that it's ignorant, it's absurd, it's dangerous, it's insulting, and to put the blame for that on the LGBTQ+ community is absolutely unacceptable.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Thank you, Sarah, for those very well-said comments there in terms of calling out the risk of history repeating itself in terms of ignorance. Do you know what? I don't actually think it's ignorance half the time, unfortunately; it's intentional. And that kind of othering and the homophobia, that kind of low level, almost, sometimes—. It's inferred homophobia that is latent in some of these things. I'm really pleased that 40 years after the AIDS crisis—. Also, you talked about Terrence Higgins, and I know my colleague Jeremy Miles sponsored an event in this place last week, to launch the Welsh Government's new HIV action plan. That demonstrates how far we've come, but also recognises that we still have a road to travel in terms of tackling stigma and homophobia. I very much would join in with you in what you said, and a message to all LGBTQ+ people in Wales and beyond that you are amazing, you are valued, you are loved for who you are.

Joyce Watson AC: Thank you. Before we move to the Stage 3 debate on the Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Bill, I will suspend proceedings for 10 minutes, in accordance with Standing Order 12.18. The bell will be rung five minutes before reconvening. Please, could all Members ensure they return promptly, so that voting preparations can take place?

Plenary was suspended at 15:43.

The Senedd reconvened at 15:59, with the Llywyddin the Chair.

5. Debate: Stage 3 of the Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Bill

That brings us to the Stage 3 debate on the Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Bill.

Group 1: Establishment of the Commission and appointment and terms of its members (Amendments 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130, 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141, 142, 143, 144, 145, 146, 147, 148, 149, 150, 151, 152, 153, 154, 155, 156, 157, 158, 159, 160, 119)

We will now discuss the first group of amendments, which relate to the establishment of the commission, and appointment and terms of its members. The lead amendment in the group is amendment 120, and I call on Laura Anne Jones to move the lead amendment and to speak to other amendments in the group. Laura Anne Jones.

Amendment 20 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Diolch, Llywydd, for this opportunity to contribute to the Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Bill. I will speak to my amendments 119 to 160. This group of amendments serves to ensure proper communication between the Welsh Ministers and the commission surrounding the terms of remit.
With such a substantial budget to be at the disposal of the commission, it is only right that annual letters of remit are utilised to ensure that an arm's-length body can run efficiently, particularly when the likes of the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales still believe there is a real risk of this single body not being able to achieve its strategic outcomes. We want to avoid the danger of allowing the Welsh Government to take action at operational level, as it would clearly create unclear governance arrangements, which in turn would cause delay and confusion. Crucially, these amendments will serve to make the appointment of the members of the commission, as well as the chair and members of the research and innovation committee, subject to a Senedd appointment process, as in previous amendments tabled in relation to the Health and Social Care (Quality and Engagement) (Wales) Act 2020. While I am disappointed that we find ourselves having to resubmit these amendments, my group and I's determination to ensure maximum independence for the commission compels me to table these amendments and stress their importance yet again.
On amendment 161, I'm seeking to omit the lines in the Bill that provide powers for the commission for tertiary education and research to restructure sixth form education. These are not powers that belong within the remit of the commission, and there is no reason to believe, even for a moment, that sixth form education across Wales would stand to benefit from interference of this nature.
Finally, on amendment 119, I am resubmitting this amendment as I still firmly believe in extending the time of the application of the Bill. It's important to allow for further consideration of the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2021. We need real reassurance that the Bill's application will not be impacted by any of the legal proceedings between the Welsh Government and the UK Government.
Turning to the Minister's amendments, I don't think they entirely address concerns set out in Stage 2 about the modification of strategic plans, as they are still allowed that power. Yes, it's been diluted a little, but only a little. I'd like to have seen that the Minister had adapted these plans to ensure that the commission will truly be an arm's-length body through his amendments tabled today. Thank you.

I have no speakers. I call on the Minister to respond to this group of amendments.

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you, Llywydd.I welcome this opportunity to consider the amendments to the Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Bill today.

Jeremy Miles AC: Before I speak to the amendments in this group, I'd like to place on record my thanks to the committees and all the Members for their scrutiny of this Bill, and particularly to those Members who've tabled amendments to the Bill today. Whilst it has not been possible to agree all amendments, may I place on record my assurance to Members that I have considered carefully each and every amendment tabled?
Turning to the amendments in this group, as I indicated when this was tabled at Stage 2, I reject amendment 119, which delays the affected provisions being brought into force until 1 January 2024. This will prevent the making of any commencement Orders, including in respect of those powers necessary to make preparatory arrangements to support the implementation of the commission in a manner that ensures continuity of provision for the sector and supports a smooth transition to the commission. In establishing the new commission, the Bill will bring together for the first time the funding, oversight and regulation of tertiary education and research in Wales, putting learners at its heart. As I've previously stated, the change is overdue, and it's essential it can happen as soon as practicable, whilst ensuring the implementation is robust and that stakeholders are not overburdened. In respect of the internal market Act, which I think is the reference the Member was making, I can confirm I don't consider there are any implications for this Bill, and I don't consider it warrants a significant delay to the implementation.
I also reject amendment 120, which requires Welsh Ministers to issue guidance to the commission with respect to the manner in which it should exercise its functions and also review that guidance annually. When speaking to the amendment, Laura Anne Jones referred to it providing for an annual remit letter, in effect, and I don't consider that this amendment would actually provide for that, and in general terms we want to move to a longer term horizon, rather than the annual arrangements currently in place. Critically, I don't consider the amendment supports the principle of the commission being an arm's-length body. Instead, it provides for a bureaucratic and onerous process that risks significantly affecting the commission's ability to take the long-term strategic view that we wish it to take.
I am confident that our approach of the commission operating at arm's length from the Government, within a strategic planning and funding framework, is the correct way forward to meet our ambitions. This approach would not, however, prevent us from providing the commission with an annual remit letter, where necessary and appropriate, as that option remains part of the standard relationship between the Welsh Government anda sponsored body. In addition, section 20 of the Bill requires the commission to have regard to any guidance the Welsh Ministers may issue in respect of its functions under the Bill, the difference here being that guidance can be issued if needed as opposed to a duty to issue guidance on all of the commission's functions immediately, regardless of whether a need for such guidance has arisen. It is not my intention to issue guidance to the commission on all of their functions. As the national steward for tertiary education in Wales, I intend the commission to be provided with the autonomy to operate as an arm's-length body.
I also reject the remaining amendments in this group, which undermine the long-standing practice of ministerial appointments to public bodies. As I have confirmed during the previous stages, Llywydd, the chair and deputy chair and the chief executive will appear in front of the relevant Senedd committee for introductory hearings. In light of that, I call on Members to reject all the amendments in this group.

Laura Anne Jones to respond.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Thank you for your response, Minister. I'm disappointed, yet not surprised, that the Minister has rejected my amendments, but I would like to stress the importance yet again of ensuring proper communication between the Welsh Ministers and the commission concerning its remit. I also feel we must emphasise the absolute necessity of an efficient arm's-length approach being guaranteed, and the value that extending the time of the application of the Bill would bring. It's imperative to the success of the commission that it has autonomy and independence to truly feel able to make decisions deemed necessary without the undue influence of Welsh Government Ministers.
I know what the Minister has said previously about the public appointments process, as we've heard it before in a previous health Minister's arguments on the citizen voice body during the passage of the Health and Social Care (Quality and Engagement) (Wales) Act 2020, and most recently, at Stage 2 of this Bill. While of course we don't want to be overprescriptive about the commission's structure, I and my group have become increasingly concerned that certain appointments are closer to the Welsh Government than being truly independent. Granted, we have a small pool to work with in Wales, but I think there is a case to be made that Members of the commission should have been questioned and evaluated by the committee. I'm not sure if the Minister's response in the committee has allayed my own concerns about the separation of Welsh Government and the commission, especially as he didn't consider any provision needed to be placed on the face of the Bill. I move our amendments.

The question is that amendment 120 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is objection. We will therefore proceed to a vote on amendment 120. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, the amendment is not agreed.

Amendment 120: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 121, is it being moved? Laura Anne Jones.

Amendment 121 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Moved.

Amendment 121. Is there any objection to the amendment? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection. Therefore we will move to a vote on amendment 121. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 121 is not agreed.

Amendment 121: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Laura Anne Jones, amendment 122. Is it being moved?

Amendment 122 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Moved.

Amendment 122. Is there any objection to the amendment? [Objection.] Yes, there is. We'll therefore move to vote on amendment 122.

Amendment 122 in the name of Laura Anne Jones.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. And therefore amendment 122 is not agreed.

Amendment 122: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 123, Laura Anne Jones.

Amendment 123 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

It's moved.

The question that amendment 123 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is an objection. We will move to a vote. Open the vote on amendment 123.

Amendment 123, in the name of Laura Jones.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 123 is not agreed.

Amendment 123: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 124, Laura Jones.

Amendment 124 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

It's moved.

The question is that amendment 124 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection. Therefore, we will move to a vote. Open the vote on amendment 124.

Amendment 124, in the name of Laura Jones.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 124 is not agreed.

Amendment 124: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 125, Laura Jones.

Amendment 125 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

It's moved.

Are there objections to amendment 125? [Objection.] There are. Therefore, we will move to a vote on amendment 125. Open the vote.

Amendment 125, in the name of Laura Jones.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 125 is not agreed.

Amendment 125: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 126.

Amendment 126, Laura Jones.

Amendment 126 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

It's moved. Is there an objection? [Objection.] Yes, there is, togwelliant126. We'll move to a vote on amendment 126, in the name of Laura Jones.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. And therefore amendment 126 is not agreed.

Amendment 126: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 127, Laura Jones.

Amendment 127 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

It's moved.

Are there any objections to amendment 127? [Objection.] There are. We'll therefore move to a vote. Open the vote on amendment 127.

Amendment 127, in the name of Laura Jones.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Amendment 127 is therefore not agreed.

Amendment 127: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 128, Laura Jones.

Amendment 128 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

It's moved.

Is there any objection to amendment 128? [Objection.] There is an objection. Therefore, we will move to a vote. Open the vote on amendment 128.

It's amendment 128, in the name of Laura Jones.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 128 is not agreed.

Amendment 128: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 129, Laura Jones.

Amendment 129 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

129 is moved.

Are there any objections to amendment 129? [Objection.] There are. Therefore, we will move to a vote on amendment 129. Open the vote.

Amendment 129, in the name of Laura Jones.

In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 129 is not agreed.

Amendment 129: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 130, Laura Jones.

Amendment 130 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

It's moved.

Amendment 130, are there any objections? [Objection.] There are. We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 130. Open the vote.

Amendment 130, Laura Jones.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. And therefore amendment 130 is not agreed.

Amendment 130: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 131, Laura Jones.

Amendment 131 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

Amendment 131 is moved. Is there an objection to 131? [Objection.] Yes, there is.

We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 131. Open the vote.

Amendment 131 in the name of Laura Jones.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. And therefore amendment 131 is not agreed.

Amendment 131: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 132.

Amendment 132, Laura Jones.

Amendment 132 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

It's moved.

Are there any objections to amendment 132? [Objection.] There are. We'll therefore move to a vote. Open the vote on amendment 132.

Amendment 132 in the name of Laura Jones.

Close the vote.

Very effective.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 132 is not agreed.

Amendment 132: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 133, Laura Jones.

Amendment 133 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

It's moved.

Are there any objections to amendment 133? [Objection.] There are. We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 133. Open the vote.

Amendment—[Inaudible.]

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 133 is not agreed.

Amendment 133: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 134, Laura Jones.

Amendment 134 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

It's moved.

Are there any objections to the amendment? [Objection.] There are. We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 134. Open the vote—

—on amendment 134 in the name of Laura Jones.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 134 is not agreed.

Amendment 134: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 135, Laura Jones.

Amendment 135 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move, please.

It's moved.

Are there any objections? [Objection.] There are. We'll therefore move to a vote on amendment 135. Open the vote.

Amendment 135 in the name of Laura Jones.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. And therefore amendment 135 is not agreed.

Amendment 135: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

136, Laura Jones.

Amendment 136 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move, please.

Moved.

Are there any objections? [Objection.] There are. We'll therefore move to a vote on amendment 135—no, 136. Amendment 136.

Amendment 136.

Open the vote.

Amendment 136 in the name of Laura Jones.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 136 is not agreed.

Amendment 136: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 137, Laura Jones.

Amendment 137 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

The amendment is moved.

Are there any objections? [Objection.] There are. We'll therefore move to a vote on amendment 137. Open the vote.

It's amendment 137 in the name of Laura Jones.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 137 is not agreed.

Amendment 137: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 138, Laura Jones.

Amendment 138 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move, please.

It's moved.

Are there any objections? [Objection.] Yes, there are objections. We'll open the vote on amendment 138.

Amendment 138, Laura Jones.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 138 is not agreed.

Amendment 138: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 139, Laura Jones.

Amendment 139 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

It's moved.

Are there any objections? [Objection.] There are objections. We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 139.

Amendment 139 in the name of Laura Jones.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 139 is not agreed.

Amendment 139: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 140, Laura Jones.

Amendment 140 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

It's moved.

Are there any objections? [Objection.] Yes. We'll move to a vote on amendment 140. Open the vote.

Open the vote. Amendment 140 in the name of Laura Jones.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. And therefore amendment 140 is not agreed.

Amendment 140: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

141, Laura Jones.

Amendment 141 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

141 is moved.

Are there any objections? [Objection.] There are. We'll move to a vote on amendment 141. Open the vote.

This is amendment 141 in the name of Laura Jones.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 141 is not agreed.

Amendment 141: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

142, Laura Jones.

Amendment 142 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

Amendment 142 is moved. Are there any objections? [Objection.] There are. We'll therefore move to a vote on amendment 142. Open the vote.

Amendment 142 in the name of Laura Jones.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. And therefore amendment 142 is not agreed.

Amendment 142: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 143, Laura Jones.

Amendment 143 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

Amendment 143. Any objections? [Objection.] There are objections. We'll move to a vote. Open the vote on amendment 143 in the name of Laura Jones.

Amendment 143.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore amendment 143 is not agreed.

Amendment 143: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 144, Laura Jones.

Amendment 144 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

Amendment 144 has been moved. Is there an objection? [Objection.]

So, we'll move to a vote on amendment 144. Open the vote.

Amendment 144 in the name of Laura Jones.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 144 is not agreed.

Amendment 144: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 145, Laura Jones.

Amendment 145 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

It's moved. Are there any objections to the amendment? [Objection.] There are. We'lltherefore move to a vote on amendment 145. Open the vote.

Amendment 145 in the name of Laura Jones.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 145 is not agreed.

Amendment 145: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 146, Laura Jones.

Amendment 146 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

The questionis that amendment 146 beagreed to. Doesany Member object? [Objection.]There are objections. We'll move to a vote on amendment 146. Open the vote.

Amendment 146 in the name of Laura Jones.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 146 is not agreed.

Amendment 146: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 147, Laura Jones.

Amendment 147 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

The amendment is moved. Are there any objections to amendment 147? [Objection.] There are. We will therefore open the vote on amendment 147.

Amendment 147 in the name of Laura Jones.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 147 is not agreed.

Amendment 147: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 148, Laura Jones.

Amendment 148 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

Amendment 148 is moved. Are there any objections? [Objection.] There are. We'll therefore move to a vote on amendment 148. Open the vote.

Amendment 148.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 148 is not agreed.

Amendment 148: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 149.

Amendment 149, Laura Jones.

Amendment 149 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

Amendment 149 is moved. Any objections? [Objection.] There are. We'll therefore move to a vote on amendment 149. Open the vote.

Amendment 149.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 149 is not agreed.

Amendment 149: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 150.

Amendment 150, Laura Jones.

Amendment 150 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

The amendment is moved. Are there any objections? [Objection.] There are. We'll therefore move to a vote on amendment 150. Open the vote.

Amendment 150.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 150 is not agreed.

Amendment 150: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 151, Laura Jones.

Amendment 151 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

The amendment is moved—amendment 151. Any objections? [Objection.] There are objections. We'll move to a vote on amendment 151. Open the vote.

Amendment 151.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Amendment 151 is therefore not agreed.

Amendment 151: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 152, Laura Jones.

Amendment 152 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

The amendment is moved. Are there any objections? [Objection.] There are. We'll therefore move to a vote on amendment 152. Open the vote.

Amendment 152.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 152 is not agreed.

Amendment 152: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Before I move on, can I just check that anybody voting remotely has their camera switched on? Thank you for that. So, we'll move on. Amendment 153. Laura Jones, is it being moved?

Amendment 153 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

Amendment 153 is moved. Are there any objections? [Objection.] We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 153. Open the vote on amendment 153.

Amendment 153.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 153 is not agreed.

Amendment 153: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 154.

Amendment 154, is it being moved?

Amendment 154 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

Amendment 154 is moved. Are there any objections? [Objection.] There are. We'll therefore move to a vote on amendment 154. Open the vote.

Amendment 154.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 154 is not agreed.

Amendment 154: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 155, Laura Jones.

Amendment 155 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

It is moved. Are there any objections to amendment 155? [Objection.] There are. We'll therefore move to a vote on amendment 155.

Open the vote—amendment 155.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 155 is not agreed.

Amendment 155: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 156.

Amendment 156.

Amendment 156 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

The amendment is moved. Are there any objections? [Objection.] There are. We'll move to a vote on amendment 156. Open the vote.

Amendment 156.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore amendment 156 is not agreed.

Amendment 156: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 157, Laura Jones.

Amendment 157 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

The amendment is moved. Are there any objections? [Objection.] There are. We'll therefore move to a vote on amendment 157. Open the vote.

Amendment 157.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore amendment 157 is not agreed.

Amendment 157: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 158, Laura Jones.

Amendment 158 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

The amendment is moved. Are there any objections? [Objection.] There are. We'll therefore move to a vote on amendment 158. Open the vote.

Amendment 158.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore amendment 158 is not agreed.

Amendment 158: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 159, Laura Jones.

Amendment 159 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Symud.

The amendment is moved. Are there any objections? [Objection.] There are. Open the vote on amendment 159.

Amendment 159.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore amendment 159 is not agreed.

Amendment 159: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

The final amendment in this group, 160. Is the amendment moved?

Amendment 160 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

The amendment is moved. Are there any objections? [Objection.] There are. We'll therefore move to a vote on amendment 160. Open the vote.

Open the vote, amendment 160.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore amendment 160 is not agreed.

Amendment 160: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Group 2: Distance Learning (Amendments 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 37, 38, 42, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 63, 64, 67, 68, 69)

Group 2 is the next group, and this group of amendments relates to distance learning. Amendment 1 is the lead amendment in this group, and I call on the Minister to move and speak to the lead amendment. Jeremy Miles.

Amendment 1 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Diolch Llywydd. I call on Members to support these technical but important amendments that ensure that courses provided by way of distance learning by, or on behalf of, tertiary education providers in Wales are captured by the relevant provisions in the Bill, and also make provision regarding the territorial application of the Bill.
Llywydd, during the pandemic the tertiary education sector in Wales was able to quickly adapt, by increasing the volume of teaching and learning delivered remotely and online. In the future, we expect that there will be greater use of hybrid delivery of teaching and learning, and it is important that the law remains up to date with this, anticipating and enabling providers to deliver on behalf of learners.
Amendments 1 to 5, 7, 10 and 11 clarify the territorial application of the commission's strategic duties in respect of equality of opportunity, continuous improvement, and Welsh-medium tertiary education. These duties now apply to Welsh tertiary education, which is defined by amendment 68 as tertiary education provided by, or on behalf of, a tertiary education provider in Wales, or funded or otherwise secured by the commission.
Amendment 69 ensures that references to the provision of tertiary education by, or on behalf of, a tertiary education provider in Wales include courses of tertiary education provided at one or more places in Wales or elsewhere and by way of distance learning.
These amendments will ensure that these strategic duties apply to tertiary education delivered by providers in Wales through distance learning, or face-to-face provision delivered outside Wales, and also tertiary education funded or otherwise secured by the commission.
Amendments 8 and 9 amend the territorial application of the strategic duty to promote collaboration and coherence in tertiary education and research. The duty will now apply in respect of providers in Wales, namely institutions whose activities are wholly or mainly carried out in Wales.
Amendments 14 and 15 clarify that the definition of 'qualifying courses' for the purposes of fee limits under section 32 of the Bill include courses provided by a registered provider falling within a fee limit category, where such courses are provided in Wales or elsewhere either on a face-to-face basis or by way of distance learning. This clarifies the law to ensure that fee limits for qualifying courses apply even where a student is undertaking the course by way of distance learning, and where the course is provided in Wales or elsewhere.
Amendments 16 to 20 clarify that the conditions of registration in respect of equality of opportunity apply to face-to-face courses provided wholly or mainly in Wales and distance learning courses where those courses can be said to be wholly or mainly in Wales because of the physical location of teaching staff and students. Amendment 21 is consequential on these amendments and clarifies the definition of 'under-represented groups'.
Amendment 22 clarifies the territorial application of the powers of entry and inspection under section 74 in the Bill by stating that such powers apply in respect of premises in Wales and in England.
Amendments 37, 38 and 42, and the related definition of 'facilities for Wales' in amendment 67, amend the commission’s duties to secure facilities for further education and training both in Wales and for persons ordinarily resident in Wales. This may include provision by way of distance learning or face-to-face provision taking place outside Wales and is consistent with the effect of the equivalent duties in current legislation.
Amendments 47 to 51 amend the territorial scope of the powers to fund activities connected to tertiary education. Amendments 47 and 48 relate to the powers of the Welsh Ministers and the commission to fund information about education and training and facilities to link employers and those providing or receiving education and training under section 102(1). The amendments provide for such education to include tertiary education delivered by providers in Wales, tertiary education funded or otherwise secured by the commission, and any other education or training provided wholly or mainly in Wales, or provided either face-to-face or by way of distance learning to persons ordinarily resident in Wales.
Amendments 49 and 50 make similar provision in respect of the commission’s powers to fund Welsh-medium tertiary education and to teach Welsh by means of tertiary education. Amendment 51 provides the definition of 'relevant education' for these purposes.
Finally, amendments 63 and 64 similarly amend the territorial scope of the Welsh Ministers’ and commission’s powers to fund research in relation to education and training.
I call on Members to support all of these amendments.

I have no other speakers on this group. I take it that the Minister does not need to respond. So the question is that amendment 1 be agreed to. Does any Member object?

Is there an objection to amendment 1? No.

No, therefore amendment 1 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment 2—is it moved by the Minister?

Amendment 2 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

Yes, it is. Is there objection to amendment 2? No, therefore amendment 2 has been agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment 3, Minister.

It's being moved by the Minister.

Amendment 3 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

Is there an objection? No objection, therefore amendment 3 is accepted.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Is amendment 4 moved by the Minister?

Amendment 4 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

Yes, it is. Is there objection to amendment 4? No, therefore amendment 4 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment 5—is it moved by the Minister?

Amendment 5 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

Yes, it is. Is there an objection to amendment 5? No, therefore amendment 5 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Group 3: Additional Learning Needs (Amendment 6)

Group 3 is next. Group 3 of amendments relates to additional learning needs. Amendment 6 is the lead and lone amendment in this group. I call on the Minister to move and speak to amendment 6.

Amendment 6 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Amendment 6 adds reference to individuals who have additional learning needs into section 4 of the Bill, which provides for the strategic duty in respect of encouraging participation in tertiary education. Section 4 requires the commission to
'encourage individuals who are ordinarily resident in Wales to participate in tertiary education'.
This amendment alters this section to include express reference to
'individuals who have additional learning needs'.
While the duty, as introduced, captures all individuals, including those who have additional learning needs, as I indicated at Stage 2, I am bringing forward this amendment to include express reference on the face of the Bill to put beyond any doubtthat those who have additional learning needs are within the scope of the strategic duty. I would like to thank Laura Anne Jones in particular for the constructive approach she has taken to discussions in relation to this amendment, which takes into account the discussions we had during the Stage 2 proceedings in committee. I urge Members to support this important amendment.

Laura Anne Jones AC: I recognise the Minister has taken some action on this, and we welcome it, of course, and thank you for recognising our contribution to it. But, we need to see the commission being clear in how they will treat people with additional learning needs in their policy, especially surrounding supported internships and apprenticeships, which are being integrated into the Bill. Barriers already exist for those with learning disabilities entering into the workforce, and this Bill could be a huge opportunity to break down those barriers.
The Minister is aware that the committee expressed its concerns about the commission in relation to the Additional Learning Needs and Education Tribunal (Wales) Act 2018, and I do note his response, which mentioned that detailed arrangements for implementing post-16 ALN reforms are currently being finalised. I would therefore be grateful if the Minister would clarify when he expects these detailed arrangements to be implemented and how these will affect the commission's policy on the provision of ALN in the tertiary and higher education sectors. I would also like to know whether funding for supported internships and apprenticeships will be included within this policy.
I recognise the Welsh Government has embarked on significant reforms to ALN in the educational sector, and as ALN is life long, we do need to ensure that there is a seamless transition from schools to tertiary education and then, if possible, on to work. Diolch, Llywydd.

Sioned Williams MS: Plaid Cymru supports the amendment in this group, certainly amendment 6, which responds to issues that were raised during scrutiny stages. As the Minister and Laura Anne Jones said, it is a period of significant change in ALN, and it's important that this Billl, which introduces major changes to tertiary education, does deliver for our ALN learners. As we know, there are barriers for people with learning disabilities to entering the workforce, and this Bill is a very real opportunity to try to remove some of those barriers, as Laura Anne Jones said. And, as was recognised by the Minister during Stage 2, it is crucial that there is a smooth pathway through statutory education to post-16 learning and to the workforce. As the Minister noted during Stage 2, the commission will have a role to play in assessing whether the resources are adequate to make provision for ALN at a general population level. So, what I would like to hear from the Minister is how he anticipates that the commission will encourage individuals living in Wales to participate in tertiary education.

The Minister to reply to the debate.

Jeremy Miles AC: May I thank Laura Anne Jones and Sioned Williams for their support for what we are proposing in this amendment and for recognising the positive and collaborative discussions we had during Stage 2 of the Bill? In terms of the question that Laura Anne Jones asked, it's a matter, of course, for the commission to do this, but the work is already being done in terms of implementing this legislation with regard to actions, and this reform to the Bill will be taken into account in that specific context. And, as Sioned Williams mentioned in her question, it is vitally important to ensure that there is continuity for people with additional learning needs, and this addition does make that clear on the face of the Bill.
I'd just like to restate that what was in the Bill when it was introduced ensured that there was a strategic role for the commission to provide across the system, and that was made clear, and that aligns with the reforms in terms of legislation that we already have with regard to ALN. That is what allows us to work with local authorities and others that have specific responsibilities to provide in the context of individuals.

The question, therefore, is that amendment 6 be agreed to. Does any Member object to amendment 6?

Is there an objection to amendment 6?

No. Therefore, amendment 6 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Is amendment 7 being moved by the Minister?

Amendment 7 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

Amendment 7. Is there an objection to amendment 7? No, therefore amendment 7 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment 8, is it moved, Minister?

Amendment 8 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

Therefore, amendment 8. Is there objection to amendment 8? No. Therefore, amendment 8 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Is amendment 9 being moved?

Amendment 9 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

Yes. Is there objection to amendment 9? No. Therefore, amendment 9 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment 10, is it moved?

Amendment 10 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

Is there objection to amendment 10? No, therefore amendment 10 is also agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Group 4: Welsh-medium provision (Amendments 79, 80)

Group 4 is the next group, and this next group of amendments relates to Welsh-medium provision. Amendment 79 is the lead amendment in this group, and I call on Laura Anne Jones to move the lead amendment and to speak to the group. Laura Jones.

Amendment 79 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I wish to speak to my amendments 79 and 80. The purpose of these amendments is to strengthen the duty on the commission to promote Welsh-medium tertiary education to reflect the ambitions of 'Cymraeg 2050'.
On amendment 79, I have chosen to resubmit this amendment as I still believe it is vital to reflect the commission's important role in reaching the 1 million Welsh speakers objective.
As for amendment 80, this is to amend the Minister's Stage 2 amendments. The reason for this is to add clarity and focus to the Minister's amendments with regard to 'Cymraeg 2050', by ensuring that specific mention is made to the provision of resources. I hope the Minister will see the value in this. Diolch.

Sioned Williams MS: Plaid Cymru, of course, supports the principle of securing resources to promote and enhance the demand for Welsh-medium tertiary education, and we voiced our concerns about this during Stages 1 and 2, concerns that were shared during Stage 1 by UCAC, the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol and the Welsh Language Commissioner. We were therefore pleased to have seen during Stage 2 a robust amendment to ensure that the commission would need to not only meet demand, but also to promote, encourage and secure Welsh-medium provision. We agree with the Government that the strategic duty mentioned in amendment 11 meets the concerns, and that amendments 79 and 80 are inappropriate because the question of resources is part of the strategic duty to encourage demand.
If we are to reach a million Welsh speakers by 2050, then promoting the benefits of Welsh-medium provision to learners and students, of course, is crucially important. We need to nurture the confidence of students that bilingual or Welsh-medium pathways are possible for them, and ensure that those pathways are attractive to them, and that the appropriate support will be there for them.
I was encouraged also at Stage 2 particularly in terms of the Minister's comments on the role of the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol in this regard, and its relationship with the commission. Of course, we are of the view that the coleg must decide and advise as to how to allocate any resources for Welsh-medium provision through the commission, and that it should be channelled through the coleg. I was pleased to hear the Minister confirming that they would have a crucial role to play in ensuring continuity from statutory education to post-16 education by collaborating with the commission. We would therefore be pleased to have confirmation of the Minister's vision in that regard this afternoon.

The Minister to contribute.

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you, Llywydd. As I've stated before, I'm convinced that the language belongs to us all, and that we must keep encouraging and create opportunities to use the Welsh language, particularly in our tertiary education sector. I congratulate Laura Anne Jones on her use of the Welsh language in the Chamber this afternoon.
Members will be aware that the strategic duty in respect of promoting Welsh-medium tertiary education was amended at Stage 2, as previously mentioned, expanding the duty to require the commission to encourage demand for and participation in tertiary education through the medium of Welsh.
Whilst I welcome the Member's support for resourcing increased participation in Welsh-medium tertiary education, I cannot support amendment 79 nor amendment 80, as the provision of resources is covered by the requirement to encourage demand for and participation in tertiary education provided in Wales through the medium of Welsh. Singling out resources risks making the duty less clear, as it may introduce ambiguity as to whether provision of resources falls within the scope of the duty to encourage demand.
In terms of the question that Sioned Williams asked, the explanatory memorandum has now been amended to reflect what was agreed during Stage 2. So, the wider explanation is related to that.
So, I call on Members to reject these amendments.

Laura Jones to respond.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Diolch. Diolch, Minister. I'm disappointed the Minister has rejected my amendment, as it disagrees with the notion of specific mention of resource provision in our pursuit of 'Cymraeg 2050' objectives.
Even though I agree with a lot of what the Member for Plaid Cymru just said, I'm disappointed that the Minister has rejected my amendment to his Stage 2 amendment, as, in my view, it would only serve to improve the amendment. Therefore, I ask Members to support it.

Amendment 79.Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections. We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 79. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 79 is not agreed.

Amendment 79: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 11—is it moved, Minister?

Amendment 11 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

It is. Amendment 11. Are there any objections? There are none. Therefore, amendment 11 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment 80 in the name of Laura Anne Jones. Is it moved?

Amendment 80 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

It's moved. Are there any objections to amendment 80? [Objection.] There is an objection. We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 80. Open the vote.

Amendment 80 in the name of Laura Jones.

Close the vote. In favour 17, no abstentions, 36 against. Therefore, amendment 80 is not agreed.

Amendment 80: For: 17, Against: 36, Abstain: 0Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Group 5: Institutional autonomy, academic freedom and freedom of speech (Amendments 166, 81, 82, 83, 84)

Group 5 is the next group of amendments, and this group relates to institutional autonomy, academic freedom and freedom of speech. Amendment 166 is the lead amendment in this group. I call on Sioned Williams to move the lead amendment and to speak to the group. Sioned Williams.

Amendment 166 (Sioned Williams) moved

Sioned Williams MS: Thank you, Llywydd, and I welcome the opportunity to open the debate on group 5, and to specifically speak to amendment 166, tabled in my name. During our scrutiny work on the Bill as introduced, the Children, Young People and Education Committee was eager to ensure that this legislation and the new arrangements that will be created through it will maintain and extend the long-established principles in relation to academic freedoms—that is, that there needs to be freedom for our academic community to follow their own research interests, whatever the topic of that research may be, and that they need protection to do that, free from any prejudice or detrimental consequences, because that independence of opinion can challenge institutions, society, Governments and so on, but also enriches and enhances all our lives.
My aim in introducing the amendment is to build on the strengthening of the Bill during, and following, Stage 2, specifically section 17 of the Bill, as it appears before us today. Section 17(1) as currently drafted puts a requirement on the Minister and the commission to address the importance of safeguarding academic freedoms of tertiary education providers in Wales that provide higher education, to the extent that that freedom relates to HE and academic staff within those providers.
Members who will have read the Bill in detail, and I'm sure that you will all have done so, will see that the definition of a provider of HE is to be found in section 141 of the Bill, and that that includes the provision of education through a course. However, the activities of these institutions in relation to research and innovation is broader than providing education through courses, and they could include research programmes in the postgraduate sector and innovation projects. It's important, therefore, that there is safeguarding in terms of academic freedom relating to these activities too.
This amendment therefore further amends subsection 1 to ensure that that freedom does extend to research and innovation activities and to the provision of HE. I ask Members, therefore, to support this amendment, which will facilitate and provide clarity and further assurance on the length and breadth of this important provision. Thank you.

Laura Anne Jones AC: I'd like to start by thanking Sioned Williams for tabling this debate. I would like to move amendments 81, 82, 83 and 84. The purpose of these amendments is to reflect the content of clause 1 of the UK Higher Education (Freedom of Speech) Bill, covering the governing bodies of higher education providers in Wales. This would mean that governing bodies must take steps to secure the freedom of speech within the law for staff members, students and visiting speakers. They also serve to compel governing bodies of tertiary education providers in Wales to maintain the code of practice setting out the matters referred to in subsection 2.
The code of practice would set out matters including the providers' values relating to freedom of speech and the upholding of it, procedures to be followed by staff and students in organising meetings and activities on the providers' premises, and any other matters that each governing body deems appropriate. The amendments also serve to ensure the defence of academic freedom and the freedom of speech within the Bill, as well as make it clear that frivolous or vexatious claims cannot be brought at private law. I would ask Members to support our amendments.

Jeremy Miles AC: I support amendment 166 and have been pleased to collaborate with Sioned Williams on the content of the amendment. Although the amendment does not alter the definition of academic freedom fundamentally, it does clarify that tertiary education providers in Wales that provide research and innovation, in addition to those providing higher education, fall within the scope of the duties imposed on the Welsh Ministers and the commission to have regard to the importance of protecting the academic freedom of such providers, as well as of academic staff at those providers.
As at Stage 2, I resolutely reject the amendments tabled in the name of Laura Anne Jones in respect of freedom of speech, namely amendments 81, 82, 83 and 84.
Unlike the amendments at Stage 2, I note that these amendments now confirm that no statutory tort is created as a result of the breach of the proposed duties. Whilst amendment 84 may put beyond doubt that a failure by a tertiary education provider in Wales to perform these duties would not confer a cause of action at private law, this addition does not address my fundamental concerns with these amendments.
These amendments largely draw on the UK Government’s fundamentally flawed and misguided Higher Education (Freedom of Speech) Bill. Far from enabling greater freedom of expression and breadth of debate in universities, their effect would risk stifling and suffocating free speech under greater bureaucracy.
As the parliamentary joint select committee on human rights concluded in its thorough investigation in 2018,

Jeremy Miles AC: 'the extent to which students restrict free speech at universities should not be exaggerated'.

Jeremy Miles AC: A well-respected survey of students released just last week by the Higher Education Policy Institute found that the overwhelming majority of students report that they hear a variety of opinions expressed on campus, including those different from their own, and a similar majority feel comfortable expressing their own points of view.
I'm not convinced that there is a substantive threat to free speech at universities in Wales; rather, our institutions continue to be open and supportive environments where free and frank exchanges of ideas take place daily.
Members should also note that the law already places sufficient duties on education institutions to protect freedom of speech. The Education (No. 2) Act 1986 requires that governing bodies of higher and further education institutions in Wales

Jeremy Miles AC: 'take such steps as are reasonably practicable to ensure that freedom of speech within the law is secured for members, students and employees of the establishment and for visiting speakers'.

Jeremy Miles AC: The 1986 Act also requires the institutions to publish and update a code of practice in discharging their duties in respect of freedom of speech, setting out procedures to be followed regarding meetings and the conduct of staff and students in connection with activities specified within the code. I am confident that these duties and universities' other duties under equalities and other legislation are sufficient to safeguard free speech.
I have tabled an amendment to these provisions of the 1986 Act, which will be discussed as part of group 18 in due course, to ensure the provisions remain up to date and operate as intended.
I call therefore on Members to join me in supporting amendment 166 and to reject amendments 81, 82, 83 and 84.

The question is that amendment 166 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Interruption.] Oh, I'm being corrected by a new Member of the Senedd, Sioned Williams—who is no longer a new Member, of course. Sioned Williams to reply to the debate before we move to the vote.

Sioned Williams MS: Thank you, Llywydd. Yes, I would just like to place on record that Plaid Cymru supports the Minister's views on the amendments tabled in the name of Laura Anne Jones, that is, 81, 82, 83 and 84. Freedom of speech is not unconditional, and, as was noted in the debate, we already have legislation to safeguard freedom of speech in HE institutions and to safeguard students and staff within those institutions from discrimination and harassment.
I'm pleased with the constructive collaboration between Plaid Cymru and the Government on this amendment, and the Minister's confirmation that the Government will support the amendment. It's appropriate that I also recognise the careful work undertaken by stakeholders, and that the stamp of their aspirations and their concerns and anxieties and the different views of sectors in Wales that they represent have been recognised and incorporated in this amendment. Thank you.

The question therefore is that amendment 166 be agreed to. Is there any objection? No. Therefore, amendment 166 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment 81.

I think it was moved during the debate, moved by Laura Jones.

Amendment 81 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

Is there objection to amendment 81? [Objection.] Yes, there is. Therefore, we'll move to a vote on amendment 81. Open the vote.

Amendment 81.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 81 is not agreed.

Amendment 81: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 82—

—moved?

Amendment 82 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

Yes, it's moved.

Amendment 82 is moved. Is there objection to amendment 82? [Objection.] Yes, there is. Therefore, we'll proceed to a vote on amendment 82. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 82 is not agreed.

Amendment 82: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 83.

Is it moved?

Amendment 83 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

Yes.

Amendment 83 is moved. Is there objection to it? [Objection.] Yes. Therefore, we move to a vote on amendment 83. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 83 is not agreed.

Amendment 83: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 84 is moved.

Amendment 84 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

Yes, it is. Is there objection to amendment 84? [Objection.] Yes, there is. Therefore, we'll move to a vote on amendment 84. Open the vote.

Amendment 84.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 84 is not agreed.

Amendment 84: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Group 6: Senedd procedure and process for making regulations (Amendments 85, 87, 88, 89, 96, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 66, 110, 111, 118)

Group 6 is the next group of amendments, and these relate to Senedd procedure and process for making regulations. Amendment 85 is the lead amendment in this group and I call on Laura Anne Jones to move the amendment and speak to the group. Laura Jones.

Amendment 85 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I want to speak to my own amendments first. The purpose of amendment 85 and several others within the group is to require any direction from Welsh Ministers to be done so by statutory instrument, subject to the affirmative procedure, and to be done only following consultation with the relevant Senedd committee. This is in line with recommendation 21 of the committee and with maintaining a true arm's-length situation whilst ensuring the proper checks and balances are present regarding any actions from the Welsh Government.
Amendments 87 to 89 and 96 are probing amendments designed to encourage clarification on the designation of any other providers of tertiary education and consultation with appropriate bodies.
On amendment 105 and its conditionals, I'm resubmitting the amendment to change the powers under section 138 to the affirmative procedure. My group and I remain of the opinion that it is a mistake to place the procedure in the negative, given the quantity of negative regulations that have been tabled throughout the Bill and its consequential impact on Senedd scrutiny.
Amendment 108 serves also as a probing amendment to seek clarity on the categories of registration and consultation with appropriate bodies.
On amendment 111, I'm resubmitting this amendment as a precaution to ensure the removal of Henry VIII powers and to reiterate the opposition of both myself and of Cardiff University to such elements within the legislation.
Finally, on amendment 118, I also seek here to subject regulation-making power under section 143 to affirmative procedure, as well as to remove Henry VIII powers.
As for the Minister's amendment, I am happy to support this amendment as I understand that it's necessary housekeeping for the Bill. Diolch.

Does the Minister wish to contribute to the debate on this group?

Jeremy Miles AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I'll start with amendment 66, which is a minor and technical amendment that I've tabled to remove a reference to section 140 of the Bill to regulation-making power previously provided for in section 33(1) of the Bill in light of its removal during Stage 2 proceedings, and I welcome Laura Anne Jones's support for that amendment.
The majority of the remaining amendments in this group are repeats of those tabled at Stage 2. Amendment 85 requires general directions under section 21 of the Bill to be made by statutory instrument, whilst amendment 107 subjects the SI to the affirmative Senedd procedure. The general direction of power enables the Welsh Ministers to give the commission directions in relation to specific matters set out on the face of the Bill, and amendment 106 is consequential to amendment 107. These directions relate to a single body and specific matters, and do not provide for general law making of a wider nature. The requirement to publish the direction, report it to the Senedd and lay a copy of the directions before the Senedd will ensure the accessibility and transparency of any directions. I therefore reject amendments 85, 106 and 107, and call on Members to do the same.
I also reject amendments 108 and 109, which subject regulations made under section 25(2) and 25(8) to the affirmative Senedd procedure, whilst amendment 110 makes the same provision in respect of regulations made under section 41(2) and 43(13). These regulations have been assigned the negative Senedd procedure as the substance of the provision is set out clearly on the face of the Bill. These regulations prescribe technical and administrative matters that may require updating from time to time, or make transitional or saving provisions. As such, the negative procedure is appropriate in relation to each of these regulation-making powers.
I do not support amendment 111, which applies the affirmative Senedd procedures to regulations made under section 143, dealing with matters such as consequential amendments or incidental or transitional provision in relation to subordinate legislation. This is disproportionate and unnecessary, as such provision, in respect of subordinate legislation, is, by its nature, technical and does not deliver substantive policy changes.
I reject amendment 118, which removes the ability of the Welsh Ministers to amend, modify, repeal or revoke an enactment in consequence of, or to give full effect to, provisions of the Bill. Without this power, further primary legislation will be required to make any consequential amendment that becomes apparent as necessary after Royal Assent. Whilst technically a Henry VIII power, its use is limited to provision in the consequence of, or for giving full effect to, provisions of the Bill. It would be highly unusual for primary legislation not to contain such a power, and risks the legislation not operating as intended. Where the power is used to amend or modify primary legislation, it is subject to the affirmative Senedd procedure.
Amendments 87, 88, 89 and 96 are unnecessary. The Welsh Government formally consults as standard when preparing subordinate legislation, and we publish summary reports following the conclusion of these consultations. As I have stated, Llywydd, all regulation-making powers have been fully considered and the appropriate Senedd procedure applied, thereby enabling the Senedd to scrutinise the subordinate legislation, and I do not consider it necessary to provide a statutory requirement to publish draft regulations ahead of the regulations being laid or made. And so, I call on Members to support amendment 66, tabled in my name, and to reject all the other amendments.

Laura Jones to respond.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Diolch. Thank you for your response, Minister. I remain of the firm belief that there is an overabundance of amendments in the negative, and that safeguards are necessary to ensure that the reach of the Welsh ministerial powers is limited, as outlined previously by concerns highlighted by the committee itself. I therefore ask Members to support our amendments.

The question is that amendment 85 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is objection. We will move to a vote on amendment 85. Open the vote.

Amendment 85.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 85 is not agreed.

Amendment 85: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Group 7: Learner well-being and protection (Amendments 12, 13, 98, 99, 100)

We'll move now to group 7, which relates to learner well-being and protection. Amendment 12 is the lead amendment in the group, and I call on the Minister to move that amendment.

Amendment 12 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you, Llywydd. I call upon members to support amendments 12 and 13, which introduce new mandatory initial and ongoing conditions of registration regarding the effectiveness of tertiary education providers' arrangements for supporting and promoting the welfare of their staff and students. This will ensure that consideration is given to whether providers have proper processes, services and policies in place to support the welfare, well-being and safety of students and staff.
Everyone has the right to a happy education experience, and I want Wales to build a reputation, within the UK and internationally, for putting well-being at the centre of our education system. A lack of support for mental health and well-being can be a critical barrier to success in education for many learners and students. It is therefore vital that we ensure that providers are attentive to addressing these challenges and are supported to do so by the commission. It's clear that we face many challenges across the UK. Full-time students are more likely to experience sexual assaults than those in any other occupational group, and nearly a quarter of ethnic minority students experience racial harassment on campus. Students continually report lower levels of happiness and higher levels of anxiety than the general population, and this has been exacerbated by the recent effects of the pandemic.
Over the past decade there has been a reckoning, particularly within the UK higher education sector, about how providers address matters of bullying and harassment and how they support students' well-being and mental health, and I think that we would all agree that more progress is needed on these issues. A Universities UK report in 2015 recommended sweeping changes to the ways in which universities manage reporting and support for victims of harassment, violence and hate crime, and I think that we would all agree that more progress needs to be made on this.In England, the Office for Students does not formally regulate the way in which higher education providers promote and support student welfare. We will therefore be going further in Wales by ensuring that the new commission is empowered to prioritise the oversight of these vitally important matters.
I hope that these amendments will command cross-party support. I want to thank Laura Anne Jones for tabling amendments at Stage 2 that highlighted the importance of ensuring that mental health and well-being were reflected in this piece of legislation. I believe that the amendments tabled here at Stage 3 will offer the most effective way of ensuring that the commission promotes the mental health and well-being of learners. I cannot support amendments 98, 99 and 100. As I stated when these were proposed during Stage 2 consideration, the commission has to retain the ability to modify learner protection plans so as to ensure that those plans are robust and remain focused on the learner. I call on Members, therefore, to support amendments 12 and 13 and to reject all other amendments in this group.

Laura Anne Jones AC: I'd like to echo much of what the Minister has said and I'd also like to thank him for taking our original amendment forward and supporting the intentions originally set out by the Welsh Conservatives regarding learner well-being and protection.
I would like to move amendments 98, 99 and 100. Amendment 98 and its two consequential amendments have been brought forward again to reiterate Universities Wales's suggestion for the commission to be able to approve the learner protection plan with or without modifications. The commission must be able to specify requirements as a condition for approval, and it should be a matter for the governing body to determine whether to accept the modifications. It would also be for the commission to decide whether to approve or reject the plan. However, attempts to oppose modifications directly without providers' consent would seemingly risk the commission being in breach of its duty in relation to charity law, meaning the legislation is relying on provisions that are unworkable. Therefore, I stress again here at Stage 3 that the clause should be amended to remove the ability for the commission to make unilateral changes to plans. I ask Members to consider this. Thank you.

The question is that amendment 12 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections, therefore amendment 12 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment 13, is it moved by the Minister?

Amendment 13 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

It is. Are there any objections to amendment 13? None. Therefore, amendment 13 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Is amendment 14 moved?

Amendment 14 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

It is. Are there any objections to amendment 14? There are none, therefore amendment 14 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment 15, is it moved by the Minister?

Amendment 15 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

It is. Are there any objections to amendment 15? There are none. Amendment 15 is therefore agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment 16. Minister, is it moved?

Amendment 16 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

It is. Are there any objections to amendment 16? There are none, therefore the amendment is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment 17 is next. Is it moved.

Amendment 17 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

Are there any objections to amendment 17? There are none, and therefore amendment 17 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment 18. Is it moved?

Amendment 18 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

It is. Are there any objections to amendment 18?

Gwelliant 18, unrhyw wrthwynebiad?

There are none, therefore amendment 18 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment 19, Minister.

Amendment 19 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

Amendment 19 is moved. Are there any objections to amendment 19? I don't see objections, therefore amendment 19 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment 20, Minister.

Amendment 20 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

Amendment 20 is moved. Are there any objections? There are none, therefore amendment 20 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment 21. Is it moved?

Amendment 21 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

It is. Are there any objections? There are none, therefore amendment 21 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Group 8: Apprenticeships (Amendments 86, 97, 114, 116)

We now move to group 8, which relates to apprenticeships, and amendment 86 is the lead amendment. I call on Laura Jones to move that amendment and speak to the other amendments in the group. Laura Jones.

Amendment 86 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I will speak to all the amendments in this group. As I stated at Stage 2, I believe in a more rounded tertiary education system, including traineeship programmes, employability programmes and apprenticeships, and I therefore continue to be concerned about the place of these programmes within the Bill. Their full inclusion is absolutely essential to improving a sustainable and innovative economy. Amendment 86 exists to obtain further information regarding the responsibility for the inspection or a review of degree apprenticeships. I believe it is absolutely integral that it is made clear that the commission's duty to assess the quality of higher education includes degree apprenticeships.
On amendment 97, I seek to make it clear that Part 4 of the Bill can apply to degree apprenticeships, if the other conditions in section 109 of the Bill are met. Further on this, amendment 114 would serve to clearly define degree apprenticeships in the Bill to ensure the definition encompasses any course that combines part-time higher education and an approved Welsh apprenticeship, as defined in section 109. With this in mind, I also submit amendment 116 in order to add degree apprenticeships to the wider definition of tertiary education in the Bill, alongside higher education, further education and training, and I ask the Minister to consider this.

Jeremy Miles AC: I note the concerns that the Member has expressed, but I hope it's reassuring to her for me to say they are not actually well founded in the drafting of the Bill, and so I call on Members to reject amendments 114 and 116, simply because they're unnecessary. There is no need to introduce a new, separate legal definition of degree apprenticeships, as they are captured by the existing definitions within the Bill. Also, defining 'degree apprenticeships' separately to 'apprenticeships' risks ambiguity as to whether or not degree apprenticeships are within the scope of the many references to apprenticeships elsewhere in the Bill.
Amendment 86 is also unnecessary, as no further provision needs to be made to ensure that the appropriate quality assessment arrangements are in place for degree apprenticeships in Wales. As I stated at Stage 2, the Bill is clear as to the arrangements for the quality assurance of both further education and higher education, with responsibility for both sitting with the commission. These arrangements already provide sufficient coverage for degree apprenticeships.
Section 54 of the Bill provides for the assessment of quality in higher education, and degree apprenticeships include elements of higher education. This can then allow the delegation to a designated body for higher education quality assessment under section 54 and Schedule 3. This is not dissimilar to the law at present, which is also clear. HEFCW holds a comparable duty at present under the Higher Education (Wales) Act 2015.
I appreciate that there have been considerations within the sector about what role Estyn could and should play in the quality oversight of degree apprenticeships, given their experience inspecting other apprenticeships, and there have been discussions to this effect between relevant stakeholders. The commission will make a final determination on this, and if it is decided that degree apprenticeships should form a part of Estyn's remit, regulations can be made under section 57(1)(f) without any amendment to the current text.
Amendment 97 is also unnecessary. Any arrangement that meets the criteria set out in subsections (2), (3) and (4) of section 102 is already an approved Welsh apprenticeship. I see no need, therefore, to further specify this on the face of this Bill. And so I call on Members to reject these amendments.

Laura Jones to respond.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I obviously anticipated the rejection of our probing amendment, but I thank the Minister for providing further clarity on the matter, even though I ultimately disagree with the approach. I am, however, disappointed that my amendments to clarify that Part 4 of the Bill will be applicable to degree apprenticeships as well, as to better define the relevant terms within the Bill, were rejected. I feel this is a great missed opportunity, and I implore the Minister to revise his stance on the matter, going forward. Thank you. Diolch.

The question is that amendment 86 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is. Therefore, we'll move to a vote on amendment 86. Open the vote.

Amendment 86.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 86 is not agreed.

Amendment 86: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 22, Minister, is it being moved?

Amendment 22 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Move.

Yes, amendment 22. Does any Member object? No, there is no objection. Therefore, amendment 22 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment 87, is it moved, Laura Jones?

Amendment 87 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

Amendment 87, is there objection? [Objection.] Yes, there is. Therefore, a vote on amendment 87. Open the vote.

Amendment 87.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 87 is not agreed.

Amendment 87: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Group 9: Funding policy and transparency (Amendments 78, 31, 58)

Group 9 is next. This group of amendments relates to funding policy and transparency. Amendment 78 is the lead amendment in this group, and I call on Sioned Williams to move the lead amendment and to speak to the other amendments in the group.

Amendment 78 (Sioned Williams) moved.

Sioned Williams MS: Thank you, Llywydd. I speak to amendment 78, the only amendment in this group. One of the central principles of this Bill is to try and break down the borders between the different sectors of the post-16 education sector, which, historically, have been seen as being isolated from each other. Naturally, perhaps, there is concern, with a move towards a more comprehensive system, and we heard that during our work as the Children, Young People, and Education Committee, with some stakeholders calling for a balanced funding principle on the face of the Bill, which would be a general duty on the proposed commission to ensure that there is balance between the various functions of the commission's tertiary education responsibilities and its research and innovation responsibilities.
It's understandable that there is concern that funding for the front-line provision of tertiary education could be prioritised at the expense of research and innovation, particularly when financial pressures are great and budgets are tight. However, the risk in placing such a general duty in the legislation is that it could militate against the aim of getting a more comprehensive view of the post-16 education sector.
Recognising all of this, the purpose of amendment 78 is to place a new section in the Bill, which goes some of the way towards meeting these concerns and ensuring transparency in the financial decisions of the commission. It achieves this by ensuring that the commission will need to prepare a statement on its policy as to how it will use its funding powers, and it will need to have regard to the principle that decisions about financial resources should be made in a transparent way. In practice, it will also need to consult before publishing a statement or a revised statement. We expect, therefore, that it will be possible to clearly see the impact of the commission's funding decisions on its various functions, and that those interested or concerned could express their views through the duty to consult. We're of the view, therefore, that this amendment strikes the right balance and strengthens the Bill by ensuring greater transparency.

Laura Anne Jones AC: I'd just like to take the opportunity to signal my appreciation for Plaid's tabling of an amendment inspired by the efforts that I have made throughout the process so far.

Hefin David AC: Just to note that, and to echo Sioned Williams's point, I'd like to ask the Minister just for clarity. The Welsh Government's indicated their expectation that the terms and conditions of funding will be set out in the statement and, as such, will be consulted on. As it isn't in the Bill, could the Minister confirm whether the intention is for terms and conditions of funding to be set out in the statement of funding policy and consulted on in that way?

The Minister to contribute now.

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you, Llywydd. I support amendment 78, tabled by Sioned Williams. I believe that the amendment will address, as she mentioned, concerns raised by stakeholders and the recommendations of the Children, Young People, and Education Committee regarding transparency in relation to the exercising of the commission's funding powers. I'm pleased that I've been able to work with Sioned in drafting this amendment to take forward the commitment that I made at Stage 2 in light of the comments and recommendations of the committee.
Requiring the commission to consult on and publish a statement of its funding policy, whilst having regard to the principle that funding decisions should be made in a way that's transparent, will help to ensure that stakeholders are kept informed about how the commission proposes to exercise its funding functions in relation to the full range of tertiary education provision and in respect of research and innovation.
Just to respond to the question from Hefin David, I do foresee that the consultation under this new duty would include the terms and conditions that the commission intends to impose on all of its budget.
Now, considering the requirements and changes made by amendment 78, amendment 31 removes requirements for the commission to consult prior to determining the terms and conditions applicable to its higher education funding. Amendment 31 provides for a coherent approach to the application of the terms and conditions of funding by the commission throughout the Bill by deleting provision that is no longer required in light of the wider consultation duty under amendment 78.
Amendment 58 in my name, but that reflects constructive discussions with Laura Anne Jones—and I thank her for her co-operation—addresses the recommendation of the Children, Young People, and Education Committee for the Bill to provide a more consistent and wide-ranging approach to the equal opportunity and widening access duties for all parts of the post-16 sector, and not just registered providers.
The amendment also goes further than the recommendation, creating greater consistency and alignment in terms of the commission's regulatory oversight of registered and non-registered providers. It achieves this by requiring the commission to consider imposing terms and conditions on its funding to non-registered providers in relation to matters addressed by the mandatory ongoing conditions of registration under Part 2 of the Bill.
The commission, when determining the terms and conditions to be imposed on its funding to a non-registered provider, must consider whether to impose requirements relating to quality, the effectiveness of the governance and management of the provider, financial sustainability, the effectiveness of the provider's arrangements for supporting and promoting the welfare of its students and staff, and the delivery of measurable outcomes in respect of equality of opportunity aims.
The amendment does not mandate which terms and conditions should be applied. It rightly puts the commission in control of its own terms and conditions, as what may be appropriate in respect of a large, recurrent grant may be unnecessary and unduly burdensome for a small, ad hoc contractual arrangement. The commission will be best placed to decide on the specific conditions for a particular funding stream.
Taken together, amendments 31 and 58 improve coherence across the Bill, ensure more equitable treatment of registered and non-registered providers, and afford the commission the necessary flexibility to tailor the terms and conditions so that they're proportionate, appropriate and reasonable, depending on the particular circumstances of a given funding arrangement. I therefore call on Members to support all of the amendments in this group.

Sioned Williams to reply to the debate.

Sioned Williams MS: Thank you, Llywydd. I'm pleased to have the Government's support and the support of the Conservative Party for my amendment 78, and I would like to put on record that I am grateful for the constructive collaboration that there has been throughout the journey of this Bill, in all of its stages, and that that constructive relationship with the committee and the two opposition parties has led to effective amendments to the legislation on its journey through the Senedd.

The question is that amendment 78 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No, there is no objection. Therefore amendment 78 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Group 10: Consent for collaborating bodies (Amendments 23, 24, 25, 26. 27, 28, 29. 30, 35, 36, 44, 45, 46, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 59, 60, 61, 62)

Group 10 is next. This next group of amendments relates to consent for collaborating bodies. Amendment 23 is the lead amendment in this group, and I call on the Minister to move the lead amendment and to speak to the other amendments in the group. Jeremy Miles.

Amendment 23 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Diolch Llywydd. The amendments in this group address the concerns of stakeholders and a recommendation of the Children, Young People, and Education Committee regarding provisions dealing with consent for the passage of funds to collaborating bodies. At Stage 2 I explained that removing these provisions in their entirety would not be appropriate as there remains a need to ensure funding passing from directly funded providers to other bodies is subject to appropriate controls. Ensuring that we have a general consent provision reflects the best of current practice, allowing the right conditions for innovation and partnerships, whilst keeping in place the necessary overarching protections. I consider that the amendments I've tabled today respond to the concerns of stakeholders and the committee, addressing the potential for unintended bureaucracy whilst retaining the necessary protection of public funds and, by extension, protecting learners and the tertiary education sector.
Amendments 23 to 30, 35 and 36, 44 to 46, 52 to 54, and 56 and 57 clarify that consent must be given prior to the passing of funds from a provider funded under Part 3 of the Bill to a collaborating body, and that such consent may be given in relation to a body with whom the directly funded provider is intending to collaborate, in addition to those with whom the provider is already collaborating or has collaborated.
Amendment 59 removes the power from section 107 of the Bill for the Welsh Ministers to make regulations, specifying the matters the commission must consider when deciding whether to consent to the passing of funds from a directly funded provider to a collaborating body. This amendment also clarifies that the commission may give consent generally, or in relation to a specific payment or a specific collaborating body. Amendment 55 is consequential on amendment 59.
Amendments 60 to 62 refine section 107 of the Bill. They protect the use of public funds and provide flexibility as to how the commission may give its consent to the passage of funds. The changes require the commission to apply a condition to its consent requiring directly funded providers to make arrangements ensuring financial resources paid to a collaborating body are managed efficiently and in a way that provides value for money.
These changes also clarify that, where consent has been given generally, the commission may withdraw, suspend or vary its consent in general, or in respect of a specific payment of a specific collaborating body. The existing protections in respect of the withdrawal, suspension or varying of consent remain, requiring the commission to give notice to providers and to have regard to any representations made in accordance with the notice.
Overall, the amendments in this group increase the commission's autonomy to determine appropriate consent arrangements by permitting consent to be given generally or in relation to a specific payment or a specific collaboration; clarify that providers may seek the commission's consent to the passage of funds to collaborating bodies that they are collaborating with already, or have collaborated with in the past, or propose collaborating with in the future; and ensure protection for the use of public funds. As such, Llywydd, I call on Members to support all the amendments in this group.

The proposal is to agree amendment 23. Does any Member object? No. Amendment 23 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment 24—is it moved?

Amendment 24 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

It is. Are there any objections to amendment 24? There are none, therefore amendment 24 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment 25—is it moved by the Minister?

Amendment 25 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

It is. Are there any objections to amendment 25? There are none, therefore the amendment is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment 26—is it moved?

Amendment 26 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

It is. Amendment 26—are there any objections? No. Therefore, amendment 26 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment 27—is it moved?

Amendment 27 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

Yes. Are there any objections? There are none. Therefore, amendment 27 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment 28—is it moved?

Amendment 28 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

It is. Are there any objections to amendment 28? None, therefore amendment 28 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment 29—is it moved?

Amendment 29 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

It is. Are there any objections to amendment 29? There are none. Therefore, amendment 29 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment 30—is it moved?

Amendment 30 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

It is. Are there any objections to amendment 30? There are none, therefore amendment 30 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment 31—is it moved?

Amendment 31 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

It is. Are there any objections to amendment 31? There are none, therefore amendment 31 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Group 11: Welsh Ministers' funding powers (Amendments 32, 33, 34, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95)

We move now to group 11, which relates to Welsh Ministers' funding powers. Amendment 32 is the lead amendment in the group, and I call on the Minister to move and speak to the lead amendment and the other amendments in the group. Jeremy Miles.

Amendment 32 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Amendment 33 adjusts the Welsh Ministers’ power under section 91 of the Bill to fund a limited range of higher education courses so as to enable them to provide resources themselves or to make arrangements with other persons, either individually or jointly, to fund the provision of relevant courses in the same manner as currently provided for under the Learning and Skills Act 2000. Higher education courses that may be funded include those in preparation for professional examinations at higher level, for example courses that are not degrees and lead to qualifications accredited by professional bodies. These could include qualifications relevant to health and social care or industry-specific qualifications that meet a social need or improve employment prospects.
This amendment ensures alignment of the Welsh Ministers’ power under section 91 with their powers to fund further education and training under section 96 of the Bill. Taken together, these powers will allow the Welsh Government to continue to fund employability interventions in the same manner as at present. This amendment is required as it is anticipated the Welsh Ministers may need to rely on section 91 of the Bill to fund certain courses at levels 4 and 5 of the credit and qualifications framework for Wales within the Welsh Government’s employability programmes. Some aspects of these programmes may be funded through arrangements with third parties.
Amendments 32 and 34 are consequential to amendment 33. I reject amendments 90 to 95 and strongly recommend Members to do so as well. These amendments seek to limit the Welsh Ministers’ powers under sections 96, 99 and 102 of the Bill, which are powers the Welsh Ministers will hold concurrently with the commission. These powers will enable the Welsh Ministers to secure financial resources in respect of further education and training, the undertaking of eligibility tests in relation to their powers under section 96(1)(d) or (e), and for activities connected to tertiary education. A key purpose of retaining these funding powers for the Welsh Ministers relates to the new employability and skills plan, which confirmed that all Welsh Government-led employability programmes will be delivered directly by the Welsh Government, under a new single operating model from 2023 onwards. 
Employability programmes vary. For instance, Communities for Work delivers community engagement activitiesand mentoring services. The one thing most employability programmes have in common is that they are focused on gaining employment and removing barriers to employment. The amendments seek to limit the exercise of the Welsh Ministers’ powers to deliver employability arrangements. This approach is impractical and would create difficulties for the exercise of the Welsh Ministers’ funding functions and would probably give rise to unintended consequences, which would impact negatively on the people of Wales we are seeking to support through those programmes.
The Welsh Government is best placed to directly manage inter-governmental relations on employability programmes and to work with UK Government and others to shape a co-ordinated response in Wales within its current powers. The Welsh Ministers need flexibility in the application of their funding powers relating to further education and training, to eligibility arrangements and the provision of advice, information and guidance relating to employability interventions. Amendments 91 to 95 would remove this flexibility. I should say also that, as drafted, in addition, the amendments would not be futureproofed against changes to the Welsh Government's website domain.
Retaining these funding powers will also enable the Welsh Ministers to fund certain interventions and pilots, an example of which includes junior apprenticeships. These are a 14 to 16 intervention that support disengaged learners by allowing early access to vocational learning routes at their local college. This is primarily funded by the schools budget, but does include top-up funding directly from the Welsh Ministers to further education providers. I therefore call on Members to support the amendments tabled in my name and to reject all of the other amendments.

Laura Anne Jones AC: I'd like to move amendments 90, 91, 92, 93, 94 and 95. The objective of these amendments is ultimately to limit the funding power of Welsh Ministers. They would ensure that the ability for a Welsh Minister to authorise the provision of financial resources is conditional. As stressed in Stage 2, HEFCW have noted that enabling Welsh Ministers to fund further education and training at the same time and in the same way as the commission would result in unclear strategic priorities that blur the lines of accountability and add unnecessary complexity. This is why I've brought forward amendment 91 and its consequential amendments once more. I therefore ask Members to support our amendments.

Does the Minister wish to reply?

Jeremy Miles AC: Just to respond to the point that Laura Anne Jones made, I think in my opening comments I was very clear about the specific nature of these powers. They're very particular. They're specifically related to employability programmes and, without them, our ability to deliver those programmes would be at risk. So, I ask Members to reject the amendments other than those in my name.

The question therefore is that amendment 32 be agreed to. Does any Member object to amendment 32? No. Therefore, amendment 32 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment 33, is that moved, Minister?

Amendment 33 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

Yes, it is. Does any Member object to 33? No. Therefore amendment 33 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment 34, is it moved by the Minister?

Amendment 34 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

Yes, it is. Is there objection to amendment 34? No. Therefore, amendment 34 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment 35 by the Minister—is it moved?

Amendment 35 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

Yes, it is moved. Therefore, amendment 35. Is there objection? No, there is not. Amendment 35 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment 36, is that moved, Minister?

Amendment 36 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

Yes, it is. Is there objection to amendment 36? No, there isn't. Therefore, amendment 36 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment 37, is it moved, Minister?

Amendment 37 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

Is there objection to amendment 37? No. Therefore, amendment 37 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment 38, is that moved, Minister?

Amendment 38 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

Yes. Therefore, amendment 38. Is it opposed? No. Therefore, amendment 38 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Laura Jones, is amendment 88 being moved?

Amendment 88 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Moved.

Amendment 88 is moved. Is there objection to amendment 88? [Objection.] Yes. Therefore, there will be a vote on amendment 88. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 88 is not agreed.

Amendment 88: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Group 12: Further education definitions (Amendments 39, 40, 41)

The next group of amendments is group 12, and this group relates to further education definitions. Amendment 39 is the lead amendment in this group. I call on the Minister to move that amendment and to speak to the group.

Amendment 39 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Amendments 39, 40 and 41 tabled in my name clarify the descriptions of levels of qualifications for the purposes of the Welsh Ministers' duty to describe relevant education and training for the purposes of the commission's duty to secure proper facilities for further education and training for persons aged 19 and over. The amendments clarify that when the Welsh Ministers specify a level of attainment for the purposes of these regulations, they may do so with reference to the credit and qualifications framework for Wales or another document specified by the Welsh Ministers that describes levels of qualifications. The introduction of the credit and qualifications framework for Wales as a reference point for describing levels of qualifications is more comprehensive than that in the Bill as introduced, which only referred to GCSE and A-level qualifications. Although the amendment does not materially alter the effect of this section, it underlines our commitment to greater parity of esteem between vocational and academic qualifications by integrating the more universal reference point of the CQFW, which is inclusive of all forms of qualifications. So, I call on Members to support the amendments tabled in my name.

I have no other speakers wishing to contribute on this group further to the Minister. The question is that amendment 39 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, amendment 39 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34.

Minister, do you move amendment 40?

Amendment 40 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

Yes. Therefore, is there objection to amendment 40? No. Therefore, amendment 40 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment 41. Does the Minister wish to move that amendment?

Amendment 41 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

Yes. Is there objection? No. Therefore, amendment 41 has been agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment 89, Laura Anne Jones, is it being moved?

Amendment 89 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Moved.

Yes, it is moved. Therefore, is there objection to amendment 89? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection to amendment 89. So, we'll proceed to a vote on amendment 89. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against, therefore amendment 89 is not agreed.

Amendment 89: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Minister, amendment 42, is that moved?

Amendment 42 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

Yes, amendment 42 has been moved.

Is there an objection to gwelliant 42, amendment 42? No objection to gwelliant42.

Therefore, the amendment has been agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Group 13: Requirements of employees and potential employees (Amendment 43)

The next group is 13, which relates to requirements of employees and potential employees. Amendment 43 is the amendment in this group, and I call on the Minister to move the amendment.

Amendment 43 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Amendment 43 has been brought forward to address concerns identified by trade unions about how the commission will address the needs of employees when discharging its duties to secure facilities for further education and training. Currently, section 95 of the Bill requires the commission to have regard, amongst other things, to the requirements of employers in relation to the education and training required in different sectors of employment. This amendment requires the commission to have regard to the requirements of employees and potential employees, in addition to the requirements of employers. The amendment will ensure that the commission gives consideration to the needs and interests of employees as a counterbalance to the interests of employers when discharging its duties to secure proper and reasonable facilities for further education and training. I therefore call on Members to support the amendments tabled in my name.

I have no speakers to this group. So, the question is that amendment 43 be agreed. Does any Member object? No. Amendment 43 is therefore agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment 90.

Laura Jones, is it being moved?

Is amendment 90 moved, Laura Jones?

Is it being moved?

Amendment 90 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Yes.

Are there any objections to amendment 90? [Objection.] Yes. We'll therefore move to a vote on amendment 90. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 90 is not agreed.

Amendment 90: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 91 is next. Is it moved?

Amendment 91 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

It is moved by Laura Jones. Therefore, the question is that amendment 91 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection. We will therefore proceed to a vote on amendment 91. Open the vote.

This is amendment 91.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 91 is not agreed.

Amendment 91: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Minister, are you moving amendment 44?

Amendment 44 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

Yes. Are there any objections to amendment 44?

Is there an objection to amendment 44?

No. The amendment is therefore agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment 45. Is it moved?

Amendment 45 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

It is. Are there any objections to amendment 45? No. Therefore, amendment 45 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment 46, Minister.

Amendment 46 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

Moved. Are there any objections to amendment 46? No. So, 46 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment 92 is next, in the name of Laura Jones.

Is it being moved?

Amendment 92 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

It is. Are there any objections to amendment 92? [Objection.] Yes. We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 92. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 92 is not agreed.

Amendment 92: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 93. Is it moved, Laura Jones?

Amendment 93 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

It is. The question is that amendment 93 be agreed. [Objection.] There is an objection. We will therefore proceed to a vote on amendment 93. Open the vote.

Amendment 93.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. And therefore amendment 93 is not agreed.

Amendment 93: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 94, Laura Jones.

Amendment 94 (Laura Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

Is it moved? It is. Are there any objections? [Objection.] There are objections. We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 94. Open the vote.

Amendment 94.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 94 is not agreed.

Amendment 94: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 47, Minister. Is it moved?

Amendment 47 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

It is. The question is that amendment 47 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Therefore, amendment 47 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment 95, Laura Jones.

Amendment 95 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

Is it moved? It is. Are there any objections to amendment 95? [Objection.] There are. We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 95. Open the vote.

Amendment 95.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Amendment 95 is not agreed.

Amendment 95: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 48, Minister. Is it moved?

Amendment 48 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

It is. Are there any objections to amendment 48? Any objections? There are none. Therefore, there is no need for a vote. It's agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment 49 is next, Minister. Is it moved?

Amendment 49 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

It is. Are there any objections to amendment 49? No. Therefore, amendment 49 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Fifty, Minister. Is it moved?

Amendment 50 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

The question is that amendment 50 be agreed. Does any Member object? No. Amendment 50 is therefore agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Fifty-one, Minister. Is it moved?

Amendment 51 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

The question is that amendment 51 be agreed. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, amendment 51 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Fifty-two, Minister. Moved?

Amendment 52 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Move.

Moved. Are there any objections? There are none. Therefore, amendment 52 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Fifty-three, Minister. Is it moved?

Amendment 53 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

It is. Are there any objections? No. Therefore, amendment 53 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment 54, Minister. Is it moved?

Amendment 54 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

It is. Are there any objections to amendment 54? No. Therefore, 54 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Minister, amendment 55. Is it moved?

Amendment 55 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

It is. Are there any objections to amendment 55? No. Therefore, amendment 55 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment 56. Minister, is it moved?

Amendment 56 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

Are there any objections? No, there are no objections. Therefore, amendment 56 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Fifty-seven, Minister. Is it moved?

Amendment 57 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

Jeremy Miles AC: It is. Are there any objections? No objections. Therefore, amendment 57 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Fifty-eight, Minister. Is it moved?

Amendment 58 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

It is. Are there any objections? No. Therefore, amendment 58 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Fifty-nine. Is it moved, Minister?

Amendment 59 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

It is. Are there any objections to amendment 59? No. Therefore, amendment 59 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Sixty. Is it moved, Minister?

Amendment 60 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

Yes. Are there any objections to amendment 60? No. Therefore, amendment 60 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Minister, amendment 61. Is it moved?

Amendment 61 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

Are there any objections? There are none, and therefore amendment 61 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment 62 is next. Is it moved?

Amendment 62 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

It is. Are there any objections to amendment 62? There are none. Therefore, it is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment 96 is next, in the name of Laura Jones.

Amendment 96 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

It is moved by Laura Jones. Are there any objections to amendment 96? [Objection.] There are. We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 96. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 96 is not agreed.

Amendment 96: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 97. Is it moved, Laura Jones?

Amendment 97 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

It is. The question is that amendment 97 be agreed. [Objection.] There is an objection. We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 97. Open the vote.

Amendment 97.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. And therefore amendment 97 is not agreed.

Amendment 97: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 98. Is it moved, Laura Jones?

Amendment 98 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

It is. Are there any objections to amendment 98? [Objection.] There are. We will move to a vote on amendment 98. Open the vote on amendment 98.

Amendment 98.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 98 is not agreed.

Amendment 98: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 99. Is it moved?

Amendment 99 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

It is. Are there any objections to amendment 99? [Objection.] There are. We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 99. Open the vote.

Amendment 99.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. And therefore amendment 99 is not agreed.

Amendment 99: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 100.

Laura Jones, is it being moved?

Amendment 100 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

It is. Are there any objections to amendment 100? [Objection.] There are. We'll therefore move to a vote on amendment 100. Open the vote.

Amendment 100.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against.

Amendment 100: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

We will now take a short break of some 20 minutes before we reconvene.

Plenary was suspended at 18:06.

The Senedd reconvened at 18:34, with the Llywydd in the Chair.

Group 14: Information sharing (Amendments 101, 102)

We will restart, with group 14. This group of amendments relates to information sharing. Amendment 101 is the lead amendment in the group and I call on Laura Jones to speak to that amendment—Laura Jones.

Amendment 101 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I want to speak to both amendments in this group. Whilst amendment 101 is merely what I see as a necessary technical amendment, amendment 102 is being resubmitted in order to try, again, to amend section 128 in accordance with one of HEFCW's suggested amendments, by broadening the definition of application-to-acceptance information within the Bill to make sure that we cover all our bases with regard to consultation. Diolch.

The Minister to reply.

Jeremy Miles AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I can't support amendment 101, as it is unnecessary, in fact. As set out in section 6 of the Legislation (Wales) Act 2019, words and expressions listed in the table in Schedule 1 to that Act are to be interpreted according to that table, where they appear in an Act of Senedd Cymru. 'Secretary of State' is defined in the table as meaning 'one of Her Majesty's Principal Secretaries of State' and would therefore capture any of the Secretaries of State.
I also cannot support amendment 102, as it expands the list of persons who may share information with the commission to include any other person that the commission considers appropriate or that may hold information about any matter in relation to which the commission has a function. The list of persons in section 130 has been developed so as to be appropriately broad to capture all persons who may need to share information with the commission. In addition, the Welsh Ministers may add other persons to the list via regulations. This approach will enable persons to be added to the list in a controlled manner following the necessary consultation and appropriate scrutiny by the Senedd. So, I call on Members to reject these amendments.

Laura Jones, do you want to respond?

Laura Anne Jones AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Well, I'm sure that my group and HEFCW will be disheartened to find the amendments rejected by the Minister here. It's confusing why the Minister believes that the commission would not stand to benefit from a wider pool of consultation regarding the exercise of its functions, and I ask the Senedd to take this into consideration.

The question is that amendment 101 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes. We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 101. Open the vote.

Open the vote on amendment 101.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 101 is not agreed.

Amendment 101: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Laura Jones, are you moving gwelliant 102?

Amendment 102 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

It's moved. Are there any objections to amendment 102? [Objection.] Yes. We'll therefore move to a vote on amendment 102. Open the vote.

Open the vote on amendment 102.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 102 is not agreed.

Amendment 102: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Minister, amendment 63—is it moved?

Amendment 63 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

The question is that amendment 63 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Therefore, amendment 63 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment 64—is it moved?

Amendment 64 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: It is.

Are there any objections to amendment 64? No, there are none. Therefore, amendment 64 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Group 15: Dissolution of higher education corporations (Amendments 103, 104)

We'll move now to group 15. The amendments relate to the dissolution of higher education corporations. Amendment 103 is the lead amendment, and I call on Laura Jones to move the lead amendment—Laura Jones.

Amendment 103 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I want to speak to both amendments in this group. Amendments 103 and 104 both serve to remove the power for the commission to dissolve higher education corporations in Wales. It's simply unacceptable, in my view, for the commission to have the ability and it very clearly goes against my guiding principle of this Bill, which is maintaining a true arm's-length approach. As I said to the Minister at an earlier stage, this power threatens the independence of higher education corporations without a royal charter, which would have a particularly negative impact in Wales, as it covers half of our universities. Cardiff Metropolitan University has said that it would weaken rather than strengthen the sector should these universities be given less autonomy. Wrexham Glyndŵr University pointed out that this would put HECs in Wales in the weakest position across the entire UK.
In England, such provisions were removed from legislation in 2017. The Minister has still failed to justify why it is necessary to retain these powers when they have been removed elsewhere in the UK, forcing Wales into the position of a bizarre and unjustified outlier. Diolch.

Minister.

Jeremy Miles AC: Diolch, Llywydd—

I'm sorry—

Caught napping. Hefin David.

Hefin David AC: Everybody's delighted that you've called me [Laughter.] I wanted to say that I don't think these amendments actually reflect the fact that the institutions are threatened by this. I don't think their independence is threatened by it, so I don't support the amendments in the group. But, I still would like some clarity from the Minister, because you do need some mechanism to dissolve higher education corporations, and that mechanism needs to be included in legislation. The crux of the amendments is that Ministers can still dissolve a higher education corporation without consent if they consider consent to be unreasonably withheld, and that is the significant point.
So, two questions to the Minister: are there any imminent scenarios—and I say to the Minister that's the key point: any imminent scenarios—in which Welsh Government would consider consent to be unreasonably withheld, and does the Welsh Government have any expectation of using dissolution powers other than at the request of a higher education corporation?

Jeremy Miles AC: I cannot support amendments 103 and 104. The retention of a backstop power to dissolve a higher education corporation is, in fact, necessary to ensure that, in very exceptional circumstances, and subject to safeguards and protections, arrangements can be made to smoothly and at appropriate speed dissolve a HEC and ensure arrangements can be made for the transfer of learners, property, rights and liabilities to other institutions in a controlled manner. As I say, it's a backstop power to ensure that we are able effectively to protect both public money and learner interests.
To address the points that Hefin David has raised, I do not intend this power to facilitate the Welsh Ministers dissolving higher education as part of some grand restructuring. The Welsh Ministers can make an Order without the consent of the higher education corporation in question only where they consider consent has been unreasonably—

Andrew RT Davies AC: Will the Minister take an intervention?

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes, certainly.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Some years ago, the then Minister for education wanted to amalgamate Newport university, the University of Glamorgan and the university of Cardiff Metropolitan here in Cardiff. Under the powers that you're putting through in this Bill, would the Minister be able to drive through such change? Today, we enjoy Cardiff Metropolitan as one of the most successful post-1992 universities because, at that time, the Minister for education couldn't force that merger through.

Jeremy Miles AC: It's that kind of concern that was recognised at Stage 2, when the amendments were brought forward to provide the additional protections, which the Bill, as it comes to Stage 3, already contains.
As I was saying, the Order can only be made without the consent of the corporation itself where that consent has been unreasonably withheld or delayed. A decision by Welsh Ministers that consent has been unreasonably withheld or delayed will be amenable to challenge by judicial review in the courts, and, in the very exceptional circumstances where Welsh Ministers consider that consent has been unreasonably withheld, their reasoning for coming to that view will have to be strong enough to justify that decision, and the decision will need to have been taken in accordance with public law principles, or else it could be struck down or declared unlawful. So, that protection is a new protection in the Bill, included as a consequence of Stage 2 discussions.
There is a further safeguard in the Bill, which is provided by the requirement that Ministers publish and keep under review a statement setting out the circumstances in which it's proposed to exercise the power to make an Order to dissolve a HEC in Wales. And, prior to making that statement, Ministers are required to consult persons they consider appropriate, and to lay the statement before the Senedd as soon as possible after its publication.
The charter institutions and HECs have been created and dissolved using different legal mechanisms. That's the fundamental difference between the two, and the Bill, as amended at Stage 2, ensures that there are greater similarities between the institutions in that regard. That has been the objective of the amendments that we've already made to the Bill, and that universities in Wales that are higher education corporations are not substantively disadvantaged when compared to charter universities, where, even in those circumstances, there may need to be a necessary dissolution, subject to the safeguards.
I want to thank Universities Wales for having worked with us, worked with my officials, in relation to this. I absolutely recognise that the amendments I brought forward at Stage 2 don't provide the entirety of what Universities Wales were looking for, but I believe that they strike an appropriate balance between the autonomy of individual institutions and the responsibility of Government to step in should there be a need to do so in very exceptional circumstances, and so I call on Members to reject these amendments.

Laura Jones to respond.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Diolch, Llywydd. It's good to hear Hefin David, the Member for Caerphilly, and my leader, Andrew R.T. Davies, understand the basis of our concerns in this regard. We appreciate that some changes have been made, Minister, but to fully address these concerns would only be to approve our amendments today. It's absolutely unnecessary for the commission to wield the power to dissolve higher education corporations, and represents what I can only describe as a prime example of overreach and mission creep. I reiterate my stance that a true arm's-length approach, in every sense, ought to be pursued in relation to this Bill, and I would ask Members to support us.

The question is that amendment 103 be agreed. Are there any objections? [Objection.] We will therefore vote on amendment 103. Open the vote.

Amendment 103.

Close the vote. In favour15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 103 is not agreed.

Amendment 103: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Laura Jones, amendment 104, is it moved?

Amendment 104 (Laura Anne Jones)moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

It is moved. Is there an objection to amendment 104? [Objection.] Yes. Therefore, we'll have a vote on amendment 104. Open the vote.

Amendment 104.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 104 is not agreed.

Amendment 104: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Group 16: Data protection (Amendment 65)

Group 16 is next, and this group relates to data protection. Amendment 65 is the lone amendment in this group, and I call on the Minister to move amendment 65.

Amendment 65 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Amendment 65 inserts a new section into the Bill, putting beyond doubt that any duty or power in or under the Bill that requires or enables the disclosure or use of information does not operate in contravention of any existing data protection legislation. The amendment doesn't change the effect of the legislation. As I have stated previously, all data used or disclosed under the Bill will remain subject to all relevant existing data protection legislation. This amendment puts that beyond doubt, and also ensures that such powers and duties could not be construed as modifying data protection legislation, and I call on Members to support the amendment.

I have no other speakers. Therefore, the question is that amendment 65 be agreed. Does any Member object? No, there is no objection. Therefore, amendment 65 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Laura Jones, amendment 105, is it moved?

Amendment 105 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

Amendment 105 is moved. If amendment 105 is agreed to, amendments 106, 107, 108, 109, 66, 110, 111 will fall. The question is that amendment 105 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.]

Suddenly very keen. [Laughter.]

Therefore, we'll have a vote on amendment 105. Open the vote.

This is a vote on amendment 105.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 105 is not agreed. And the other amendments that I listed also fall.

Amendment 105: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Which takes us now to group—[Interruption.]

Okay. We do take the votes on all of those amendments, I've just realised.

Amendment 106. Is it being moved?

Amendment 106 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

Yes. Therefore, the question is that amendment 106 be agreed to. Is there any objection? [Objection.] Yes, there is. We'll have a vote on amendment 106. Open the vote.

This is amendment 106.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 106 is not agreed.

Amendment 106: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 107, is it moved?

Amendment 107 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

Yes, it is. Is there any objection? [Objection.] Yes, there is. Therefore, amendment 107 will move to a vote. Open the vote.

Amendment 107.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 107 is not agreed.

Amendment 107: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 108, Laura Jones.

Amendment 108 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

It's moved. Is there an objection? [Objection.] Yes, there is. So, we'll move to a vote on amendment 108. Open the vote.

Amendment 108.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 108 is not agreed.

Amendment 108: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 109.

Amendment 109 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Symud.

It is moved. Therefore, is there an objection to the amendment? [Objection.] Yes, there is. Therefore, we'll have a vote on amendment 109. Open the vote.

Amendment 109.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 109 is not agreed.

Amendment 109: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 66, is it moved by the Minister?

Amendment 66 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

The question is that amendment 66 be agreed to. Does any Member object to amendment 66?

Amendment 66.

No. Therefore, the amendment is agreed, amendment 66.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment 110, Laura Jones.

Are you moving it?

Amendment 110 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

Yes.

Is there an objection to amendment 110? [Objection.] Yes, there is. So, we'll have a vote on amendment 110. Open the vote.

Amendment 110.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 110 is not agreed.

Amendment 110: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 111, Laura Jones.

Amendment 111 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

It is moved. Is there objection? [Objection.] We'll have a vote, therefore, on amendment 111. Open the vote.

Amendment 111.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 111 is not agreed.

Amendment 111: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Group 17: Adult community learning (Amendments 112, 113, 115, 117)

The next group of amendments is group 17. And this group of amendments relates to adult community learning. Amendment 112 is the lead amendment in the group, and I call on Laura Jones to move this amendment.

Amendment 112 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I want to speak to all the amendments in this group. Amendment 112 exists to ensure that adult community learning is included within the definition of tertiary education and to actually make the definition of adult community learning properly function within the Bill. Further to this, amendments 115 and 117 are linked to amendments 112 and 113, and will further serve to ensure that adult community learning is included within the Bill's definition of the term.
Adult community learning is essential if we are to ensure, when the opportunity arises for the creation of higher skilled jobs in Wales, that we are able to take advantage of them. We need to ensure that aspiration and opportunity aren't only available to our young people, although the Minister knows this is an area where he needs to do extensive work. Working parents want to be able to take the next step on the ladder of their career and want to improve their qualifications or learn a new skill. In many cases, this would be their first formal qualification.
Whilst the Minister is unlikely to accept these amendments today, I would urge him and his department to look at adult community learning so that it fully meets the needs of communities and that those who want to achieve can.
Amendment 113, on the other hand, will simply mean that 'entry level' is clearly defined within the Bill, which is a necessary amendment, in my view, for clarity within the legislation, and I ask Members to consider this. Diolch.

Jeremy Miles AC: I want to reiterate the importance that I place on adult learning, on lifelong learning, and making sure that Wales is a nation of second chances where it's never too late to learn, and the provisions in this Bill, which already capture adult community learning, are critical to achieving this. So, whilst I understand the intention behind the amendments in this group, I can't support them as they are not necessary, and they do not add anything to the Bill or the way in which it operates.
Amendment 117 adds 'adult community learning' to the definition of tertiary education. This is unnecessary as it is already covered as part of that definition as read with sections 141(2), (4) and (5).
Amendments 112, 113 and 115, which I also reject, relate to the definition of adult community learning. As I have said, this is unnecessary as adult community learning is already captured within the existing definitions.
Working with our external reference group for adult learning, we are already testing and designing exciting approaches to making that second-chance nation a reality. This includes a programme of national co-ordination and actions, already working to make real our commitment to lifelong learning as expressed in the strategic duties and elsewhere in the Bill. The definition of adult community learning also relies on the definition of 'level 2' in section 93 of the Bill, which has been removed following the agreement of my amendments 39, 40 and 41 in group 12.
The Bill does not include express provision in relation to adult community learning given that it is already encompassed by the definition of tertiary education in the Bill. The commission's duty to secure the provision of reasonable facilities for education and training for persons over 19, pursuant to section 94, would encompass the provision of adult community learning. In addition, the further education and training covered by the commission's duty in section 93 to provide proper facilities could, subject to regulations being made under section 93(3), also include adult community learning.
As I stated when discussing the proposed amendments defining degree apprenticeships in an earlier group, defining adult community learning separately to further education and training risks ambiguity as to whether or not adult community learning is within the scope of the many references to further education and training elsewhere in the Bill, and so I call on Members to reject all the amendments in this group.

Laura Jones to respond.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, thank you for providing more clarity and for what you've added already, but further clarity within a Bill is never a bad thing. The only purpose I can imagine to refuse it is to retain deliberate ambiguity within elements of the Bill, which, in this instance, is leading to the omission of adult community learning where I truly believe it should be present, and I ask Members to consider this. Diolch.

The question is that amendment 112 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection. We will move to a vote on amendment 112. Open the vote.

Amendment 112.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore amendment 112 is not agreed.

Amendment 112: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 114, Laura Jones. Is it moved?

Amendment 114 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

It is. Are there any objections? [Objection.] There are. We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 114.

Open the vote on amendment 114.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. And therefore the amendment is not agreed.

Amendment 114: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Laura Jones, amendment 113. Is it moved?

Amendment 113 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

It is. Are there any objections to the amendment? [Objection.] There are. We will move to a vote on amendment 113.

Amendment 113.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against, therefore amendment 113 is not agreed.

Amendment 113: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Minister, amendment 67—is it moved?

Amendment 67 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

Are there any objections to amendment 67? There are none, therefore amendment 67 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Laura Jones, amendment 115—is it moved?

Amendment 115 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Moved.

It is. Are there any objections? [Objection.] Yes. We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 115.

Open the vote, amendment 115.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against, therefore amendment 115 is not agreed.

Amendment 115: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 116, Laura Jones—is it moved?

Amendment 116 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Moved.

It is. Are there any objections? [Objection.] There are. We'll therefore move to a vote on amendment 116. Open the vote.

Amendment 116.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Amendment 116 is not agreed.

Amendment 116: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 117, Laura Jones—is it moved?

Amendment 117 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Moved.

Are there any objections to amendment 117? [Objection.] There are. We will move to a vote on amendment 117. Open the vote.

Amendment 117.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against, and therefore amendment 117 is not agreed.

Amendment 117: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Minister, amendment 68—is it moved?

Amendment 68 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

The question is that amendment 68 be agreed. There is no objection, therefore amendment 68 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment 69, Minister—is it moved?

Amendment 69 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

Are there any objections to amendment 69? No. Amendment 69 is therefore agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment 118, Laura Jones—is it moved?

Amendment 118 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: I move.

The question is that amendment 118 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes. We'll move to a vote on amendment 118. Open the vote.

Amendment 118.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore amendment 118 is not agreed.

Amendment 118: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Group 18: Technical and consequential amendments (Amendments 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 77)

Group 18 is next; these amendments relate to technical and consequential amendment. Amendment 70 is the lead amendment. I call the Minister to move these amendments.

Amendment 70 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Diolch, Llywydd. All the amendments in this group are concerned with consequential changes to existing legislation that are needed due to establishment of the commission and the introduction of the register of tertiary education providers.
Amendment 70 makes consequential amendments to section 8(4) of the Employment and Training Act 1973 to adjust the scope of education providers falling within the Welsh Ministers' duty to secure the provision of career services for school pupils and further education college students. An amendment is necessary to ensure that tertiary education providers registered with the commission for the purpose of higher education, with the exception of institutions in the further education sector, are excluded from the duty. This aligns with the exclusion of institutions within the higher education sector at present. The Welsh Ministers' duty to provide careers services will continue to apply in relation to students at further education institutions and schools, even if the further education institution is registered for the purpose of providing higher education.
Amendment 71 makes consequential amendments to section 43(5) of the Education (No. 2) Act 1986 to ensure that the duty to secure freedom of speech applies to universities, further education institutions and any other tertiary education provider registered with the commission for the purpose of providing higher education. This amendment is necessary to ensure that all tertiary education providers registering with the commission for the purpose of higher education are subject to the duty to secure freedom of speech in addition to universities in Wales and institutions within the further education sector in Wales.
Amendment 72 makes consequential changes to the definition of an institution within the higher education sector in Wales under section 91(5) of the Further and Higher Education Act 1992.Currently the definition relies on references to universities receiving financial support from HEFCW and universities that are regulated institutions under the Higher Education (Wales) Act 2015. The Bill repeals both HEFCW’s funding power and the 2015 Act. The amendment ensures that the definition captures tertiary education providers registered in a category of the register that confers eligibility for funding from the commission for the purposes of higher education or research or innovation. The amendment excludes institutions within the further education sector and schools from the definition.
Amendment 73 makes consequential amendments to Schedule 2A to the Care Standards Act 2000, ensuring that registered providers eligible for receipt of funding from the commission for the purposes of higher education or research or innovation fall within the scope of the Children’s Commissioner for Wales functions under section 72B of the Care Standards Act 2000. The amendment enables the Children’s Commissioner for Wales to review the effect of the exercise, or proposed exercise, of any functions of such providers on children ordinarily resident in Wales.
Amendment 74 makes consequential alterations to Schedules 2 and 3 to the Commissioner for Older People (Wales) Act 2006, ensuring the commissioner for older people may determine whether registered providers eligible to receive funding from the commission for the purposes of higher education or research or innovation are effective in safeguarding and promoting the interests of relevant older people in Wales.
Amendment 75 makes consequential alterations to Schedule 4 to the Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act 2006, specifying that inspections conducted by the chief inspector under the Bill will be considered a regulated activity related to children for the purposes of the 2006 Act. This will ensure the continued status of these inspections as regulated activities relating to children in light of the Bill repealing relevant functions under Part 4 of the Learning and Skills Act 2000.
Amendment 77 makes consequential alterations to section 162 of the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014, which provides that a local authority must make arrangements to promote co-operation between the local authority, each of the authority’s relevant partners and other bodies who are engaged in activities relevant to adults in need of care and support. The amendment ensures that the commission is defined as a relevant partner to the extent the commission is exercising its functions under sections 92, 93, 94, 96 or 102(1) of the Bill. This amendment also ensures that the Welsh Ministers are defined as a relevant partner to the extent they are exercising their functions under sections 91, 96 or 102(1) of the Bill.This amendment is necessary due to the repeal of the Welsh Ministers' powers to fund further education under Part 2 of the Learning and Skills Act 2000. I call on Members to support all of the amendments in this group.

Laura Anne Jones AC: I must state that I'll be abstaining on amendment 77. The amendment is a result of an amendment passing in Stage 2 that I disagreed with and, whilst it's merely a housekeeping, technical amendment to clean up the Bill, I cannot support it out of principle. Diolch.

Does the Minister wish to reply? No, there is no reply. The question is that amendment 70 be agreed to. Is there an objection to amendment 70? No, there is no objection, therefore amendment 70 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Minister, do you move amendment 71?

Amendment 71 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

Is there an objection to amendment 71? No.

Therefore, amendment 71 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34.

Amendment 72. Is this being moved?

Amendment 72 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

Yes. Is there objection to amendment 72? No. Therefore, it is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment 73. Is it being moved?

Amendment 73 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

Yes. Is there objection? No, therefore the amendment is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment 74 is next. Is it being moved?

Amendment 74 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

Is there objection? No, therefore amendment 74 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment 75. Is it being moved?

Amendment 75 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

Is it being opposed? Is there objection? No, therefore amendment 75 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Group 19: Sixth forms (Amendments 161, 162, 76, 163, 164, 165)

Group 19 is next, and this final group of amendments relates to sixth forms. Amendment 161 is the lead amendment in this group, and I call on Laura Jones to move amendment 161. Laura Jones.

Amendment 161 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Finally, I wish to speak to my amendments in the group first. As I've described previously, my group and I fundamentally disagree with the Welsh Government's holding power to rationalise sixth forms. Governing bodies and local authorities must be central to the process, and be in collaboration, not a mere afterthought. Amendment 161 serves to omit lines from the Bill that provide for powers for the commission for tertiary education and research to restructure sixth form education, as was the result of an amendment to the School Standards and Organisation (Wales) Act 2013. Further to this, the purpose of amendment 162 is to omit an amendment that adds a condition concerning objections to proposals in the context of approval of Welsh Ministers.
I'm also submitting amendment 163 to remove Chapter 3A in order to combat the relentless pursuit of grab powers over the rationalisation of sixth forms. This follows concerns raised at the previous stage about the impact on sixth forms, including concerns raised by those in the sector, especially NASUWT. Whilst they have noted the Minister's previous reassurances that the proposals don't mark the end of sixth form education, it is in reality, when in several local authorities—Blaenau Gwent, Merthyr and Torfaen—the choice of pursuing post-compulsory education in school has already been removed.
The Welsh Government also needs to take action to mitigate the risk of an exodus of Welsh learners and teachers. NASUWT has already received reports of this occurring, particularly near the border with England. We must remember that A-levels are a popular option and 70 per cent of publicly funded A-level provision is in sixth forms.
Finally, amendment 165, which is linked to amendments 161, 162, 163 and 164, seeks to bring provisions relating to sixth forms in the Bill in line with the existing provisions of the School Standards and Organisation (Wales) Act 2013, relating to primary and secondary schools, as recommendation 29 of the CYPE committee suggests from the last stage.
As for the Minister's amendment, I'll be abstaining on this amendment. Amendment 76 is similar to amendment 77 from the previous group, and is a result of a Stage 2 amendment being passed. We didn't approve of that amendment at Stage 2, and we fundamentally disagree with the premise of this aspect of the Bill. And therefore, despite it being a housekeeping amendment to clean up the Bill, I cannot once again support this out of principle. I urge other Members of the Senedd to listen to these views. Thank you.

Sioned Williams MS: This group of amendments includes amendments related to sixth forms. We will support amendments 76 and 77 whilst voting against the rest. The reason for that is that we believe that the proposals that will come before the commission will require approval—I couldn't remember the Welsh term—

Sioned Williams MS: —by Welsh Ministers as a result of amendments made at Stage 2, which we supported. I'm glad that improvements have been made in this regard when it comes to sixth forms during Stage 2, and that a whole range of concerns raised by Plaid Cymru and others in this area have been addressed by the Minister.

Sioned Williams MS: Sixth forms play an important and unique part within Welsh-medium education, safeguarding elements of immersion and securing a crucial contribution to the skills of learners who have been taught through the medium of Welsh, and to allow them to contribute to the Welsh language ethos of their schools and to be linguistic and cultural role models for younger pupils. It is crucial that the provisions within the Bill support democratic accountability at a local and national level, and that local models that are appropriate to the needs of communities are allowed. We therefore feel that the amendments made at Stage 2, which relate, for example, to using the term 'restructure' rather than 'rationalise', do meet that need, and that the choices and needs of learners, and particularly Welsh-medium learners, are now safeguarded, as they will be referred to Welsh Ministers where there is valid objection.

Darren Millar AC: I have to say that I don't share the optimism of the previous speaker about the safeguards that are in place in the Bill. I believe that, fundamentally, people should be able to express a choice about the provision that they want to attend in their locality. I think that learners should have every opportunity to enjoy a breadth of provision, whether they want to undertake their extra post-16 learning in an FEI, a further education institution or college, or whether they want to attend a local sixth form. But the reality is that those choices aren't there in all parts of the country, and we've seen an erosion of that choice over the years.
One other aspect of the erosion of that choice is the lack of availability of not just Welsh-medium post-16 education in some parts of Wales, but also faith-based education in some parts of Wales too; the Catholic Education Service, the Church in Wales, want to be able to offer more opportunities for post-16 learners to learn in an environment where there is a faith characteristic, and that is not an opportunity that I see being actively promoted in this Bill, and in fact I think that those sorts of opportunities, where they are available, are potentially threatened, and I don't see the protections in place from the Minister's amendments that have been suggested.
So, that's why I'm speaking in support of the amendments that have been tabled by Laura Anne Jones. I think it's really important that we've got to get these safeguards in place so that learner choice is something that is critical, going forward, and not something that is pushed to the sideline.

Jeremy Miles AC: Can I thank Sioned Williams for her supportive remarks in relation to the amendments? I think matters have rather moved on since Laura Anne Jones first expressed the concerns that she has repeated in this debate today, and the concept of rationalisation, to which you referred in the question, has already been entirely removed from the legislation. So, I think that sets a hare running that doesn't reflect the reality of the Bill coming into Stage 3. And I hope I can offer Darren Millar the assurance that the concerns that he has expressed have no bearing on the proposals in the debate today, because they in fact protect the kinds of arrangements that he's talking about, rather than put them at risk.
I'll speak first, if I may, to the amendment tabled in my name, amendment 76, which removes provision amending the School Standards and Organisation (Wales) Act 2013 that would have enabled the commission to refer any proposals made by a local authority or the governing body of a voluntary or foundation school that affect sixth-form education as defined and are subject to a valid objection to the Welsh Ministers for a decision. As all such proposals subject to a valid objection will now require approval by the Welsh Ministers, as a result of an amendment I made at Stage 2, this provision is unnecessary.
Turning to the other amendments in this group, I reject amendments 163 and 164 and also amendments 161 and 165, which are consequential on those amendments. These are all repeats of amendments tabled and rejected at Stage 2, and my reasons for their rejection remain the same. To recap for the record today, these amendments remove the new Chapter 3A that the Bill currently inserts into Part 3 of the 2013 Act, and instead retain the existing powers of the Welsh Ministers to reorganise sixth-form education, and extends those powers to the commission.
The Bill inserts a new Chapter 3A into the 2013 Act, rather than amending the existing provision, to better reflect the changes to the regulatory landscape brought about by the establishment of the commission. The provisions in this new Chapter will enable the commission to take a more strategic approach, offering a wider perspective to school sixth-form provision. Through the provisions, a legislative framework is established that enables the commission to adopt this strategic view and direct local authorities to bring forward proposals, ensuring the link back to the local level. By removing the amendment to the 2013 Act that I inserted into the Bill at Stage 2, amendment 162, tabled in the name of Laura Anne Jones, requires the Welsh Ministers to approve all proposals that affect sixth-form education, even when no objection has been made. This adds unnecessary bureaucracy. If there are no valid objections to the proposal, I do not see what benefit is added by Welsh Ministers needing to approve such a proposal, and so I call on Members to support amendment 76, tabled in my name, and to reject all the other amendments in the group.

Laura Jones to respond.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Okay. Diolch, Llywydd. I concur with all that my colleague Darren Millar said earlier and his concerns for faith schools and all sixth forms, and I still don't believe that the safeguards in the Bill go far enough. Excessive provision should be the only part that matters here. I find the rejection of the amendments in the group to be particularly frustrating, actually, and the Welsh Government's seemingly incessant pursuit of further powers over sixth forms in Wales is something that my group and I are concerned with. The Government has listened partly to concerns, but must listen fully to the concerns of NASUWT, the Education Workforce Council, the National Education Union Cymruand National Association of Head Teachers Cymru, who are still not happy with your amendments, Minister, and I don't understand why you can't support these amendments. I'm sure they would add to the safeguards that you say that you want in place. Diolch.

The question therefore is that amendment 161 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Therefore, we'll have a vote on amendment 161. Open the vote.

Amendment 161.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, 161 is not agreed.

Amendment 161: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 162. Is it moved, Laura Jones?

Amendment 162 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

Yes, it is. Therefore, is there objection to amendment 162? [Objection.] Yes, there is. Therefore, we'll have a vote on amendment 162. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 162 is not agreed.

Amendment 162: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 76. Is it being moved by the Minister?

Amendment 76 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

Yes. Amendment 76, is there any objection? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection. Therefore, we'll move to a vote on amendment 76. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 38, 15 abstentions, none against. Therefore, amendment 76 is agreed.

Amendment 76: For: 38, Against: 0, Abstain: 15
Amendment has been agreedClick to see vote results

Amendment 163. Moved by Laura Anne Jones?

Amendment 63 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

Yes. Is there objection? [Objection.] Yes, therefore we'll move to a vote on amendment 163. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 163 is not agreed.

Amendment 163: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 164. Is it moved, Laura Jones?

Amendment 164 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

Yes, it is. Is there objection? [Objection.] Yes, there is. Therefore, we'll have a vote on 164.

Open the vote on amendment 164.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 164 is not agreed.

Amendment 164: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 165, Laura Jones—do you move?

Amendment 165 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

Is there objection? [Objection.] Yes, there is. Therefore, we'll move to a vote on amendment 165. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 16, no abstentions, 37 against. Therefore, amendment 165 is not agreed.

Amendment 165: For: 16, Against: 37, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Minister, amendment 177, in your name. Is it moved?

Amendment 77 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes.

It is. Therefore, amendment 77, is there objection? [Objection.] Yes, there is. Therefore, we'll move to a vote on amendment 77. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 38, 15 abstentions, none against. Therefore, amendment 77 is agreed.

Amendment 77: For: 38, Against: 0, Abstain: 15
Amendment has been agreedClick to see vote results

Amendment 119. Is it moved?

Amendment 119 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Move.

Is there objection? [Objection.] Yes, there is. We'll have a vote—why not—on amendment 119. Open the vote.

Amendment 119.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 119 is not agreed.

Amendment 119: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

That's it. We've reached the end of our votes. We've therefore reached the end of our Stage 3 consideration of the Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Bill, and I declare that all sections of and Schedules to the Bill are deemed agreed. That concludes our work on Stage 3 proceedings. Thank you very much for your co-operation.

All sections of the Bill deemed agreed.

The meeting ended at 19:29.

QNR

Questions to the First Minister

John Griffiths: What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact of social class on life chances in Wales?

Mark Drakeford: We have long recognised that, alongside other factors, social and economic circumstances continue to shape life choices in Wales. That is why we commenced the socioeconomic duty in 2021 and have taken steps to support its implementation.

James Evans: Will the First Minister provide an update on the Welsh Government's plans to build more houses?

Mark Drakeford: This Government remains committed to increasing the supply of homes in Wales. Our programme for government commits to delivering 20,000 new low-carbon homes for social rent. Support for market housing is also an important part of our housing toolkit, ensuring people have homes that are right for them.

Huw Irranca-Davies: How is the Welsh Government supporting the regeneration of the Garw, Ogmore, Llynfi and Gilfach valleys?

Mark Drakeford: Our Transforming Towns regeneration programme continues to deliver our priorities for town centres, which include repurposing empty buildings, improving the diversity of services, creating more community green space and facilitating active travel routes. The programme has provided £4.8 million support across the Garw, Ogmore, Llynfi and Gilfach valleys.

Sarah Murphy: How is the Welsh Government engaging with Bridgend County Borough Council regarding its local development plan?

Mark Drakeford: We continue to offer support to local authorities to produce local development plans in addition to providing formal responses at LDP consultation stages. My officials have recently met with planning officers in Bridgend to discuss progress on their LDP.